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Author Topic: 360 Elite uses a lesser HDMI  (Read 2161 times)
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CeeKay
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« on: April 03, 2007, 03:29:35 AM »

It uses HDMI 1.2, not 1.3.

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Majidimehr admitted that if you want to experience lossless audio formats in HD DVD movies, you're going to have to look elsewhere. "If you are keen on having 5.1 PCM output, I recommend purchasing the Toshiba A2 player which after the price drop, will be much cheaper than Elite."

So basically MS is giving everyone the poor man's version of HDMI?  At least they're being honest about it.
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2007, 03:35:01 AM »

Wow, that's retarded.

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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2007, 03:37:45 AM »

Dammit, where's Hetz when you need him?
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2007, 03:42:43 AM »

Um, what?!  Have the people behind the success of the 360 been replaced by pod people?  Am I missing something?  I did the see the Toshiba player for $350 the other day so it certainly is coming down in price, though.  We'll see how the players are priced around the holidays.
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2007, 04:22:02 AM »

Man, I was so high on the 360...until mine broke for absolutely no reason.  And now that they've announced this Elite edition and they're totally gimping it.  It really seems like Microsoft's just going through the motions now :/
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2007, 04:25:17 AM »

I'm going to quote SNL during one of it's slightly funny phases:  "Who's the marketing genius that came up with that one?"
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2007, 04:55:35 AM »

IIRC, the 360 is incapable of outputting uncompressed 5.1/7.1 (all HD-DVD content is downmixed to DD5.1), so HDMI 1.3 wouldn't provide any benefit
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« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2007, 05:00:21 AM »

Here's a somewhat detailed post on the issue:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10176889&&#post10176889
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2007, 08:31:29 AM »

Hahaha! That's nuts.
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2007, 02:38:40 PM »

Guys, this is much a' do about nothing. It's not going to cause any of you any issues.
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2007, 02:41:45 PM »

I'm confused.  Does this matter if you are not playing HD-DVDs or is this something you would notice while playing games? 
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2007, 02:48:59 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on April 03, 2007, 02:41:45 PM

I'm confused.  Does this matter if you are not playing HD-DVDs or is this something you would notice while playing games? 

HDMI 1.3 doubles the bandwidth from the previous version and adds Deep Color and some other stuff:

Quote
New HDMI 1.3 capabilities include:

Higher speed: HDMI 1.3 increases its single-link bandwidth from 165MHz (4.95 gigabits per second) to 340 MHz (10.2 Gbps) to support the demands of future high definition display devices, such as higher resolutions, Deep Color™ and high frame rates. In addition, built into the HDMI 1.3 specification is the technical foundation that will let future versions of HDMI reach significantly higher speeds.
Deep color: HDMI 1.3 supports 30-bit, 36-bit and 48-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 24-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification.
Lets HDTVs and other displays go from millions of colors to billions of colors
Eliminates on-screen color banding, for smooth tonal transitions and subtle gradations between colors
Enables increased contrast ratio
Can represent many times more shades of gray between black and white. At 30-bit pixel depth, four times more shades of gray would be the minimum, and the typical improvement would be eight times or more
Broader color space: HDMI 1.3 removes virtually all limits on color selection.
Next-generation “xvYCC” color space supports 1.8 times as many colors as existing HDTV signals
Lets HDTVs display colors more accurately
Enables displays with more natural and vivid colors
New mini connector: With small portable devices such as HD camcorders and still cameras demanding seamless connectivity to HDTVs, HDMI 1.3 offers a new, smaller form factor connector option.
Lip Sync: Because consumer electronics devices are using increasingly complex digital signal processing to enhance the clarity and detail of the content, synchronization of video and audio in user devices has become a greater challenge and could potentially require complex end-user adjustments. HDMI 1.3 incorporates an automatic audio/video synching capability that allows devices to perform this synchronization automatically with accuracy.
New lossless audio formats: In addition to HDMI’s current ability to support high-bandwidth uncompressed digital audio and currently-available compressed formats (such as Dolby® Digital and DTS), HDMI 1.3 adds additional support for new, lossless compressed digital audio formats Dolby® TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio™.

It has no impact on your gaming.
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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2007, 02:50:08 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on April 03, 2007, 02:41:45 PM

I'm confused.  Does this matter if you are not playing HD-DVDs or is this something you would notice while playing games? 

It sounds like it might only be an issue when playing HD-DVD's.  I just find it refreshing that they're being honest about it and even suggesting a reasonable alternative.
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« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2007, 02:50:25 PM »

This is a mountain out of a mole hill that %99.9 of people would never notice if they weren't told about it. Still won't stop the SDF from jumping all over it.
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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2007, 02:53:55 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on April 03, 2007, 02:50:08 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on April 03, 2007, 02:41:45 PM

I'm confused.  Does this matter if you are not playing HD-DVDs or is this something you would notice while playing games? 

It sounds like it might only be an issue when playing HD-DVD's.  I just find it refreshing that they're being honest about it and even suggesting a reasonable alternative.

And only if you are playing HD DVD's into a Dolby Digital True HD receiver with HDMI in, and wanting 7.1 audio. That is such a small minority of people, in this day and time, that the fact that this is getting publicized is nuts. I bet money that this "issue" would affect no members here at GT.
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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2007, 03:02:20 PM »

Gotcha.  As I understand it the movies we download from Marketplace don't have that sound format either, right?  If MS were pushing HD-DVD harder (i.e. had an included drive in the new revision) then it would be more relevant.  I don't think any games are going to be supporting true 7.1 in the future anyway.  That'll be next-next-gen.

Still, why would they not use the latest revision?  Is it that much more expensive?
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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2007, 03:13:09 PM »

Quote from: jblank on April 03, 2007, 02:53:55 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 03, 2007, 02:50:08 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on April 03, 2007, 02:41:45 PM

I'm confused.  Does this matter if you are not playing HD-DVDs or is this something you would notice while playing games? 

It sounds like it might only be an issue when playing HD-DVD's.  I just find it refreshing that they're being honest about it and even suggesting a reasonable alternative.

And only if you are playing HD DVD's into a Dolby Digital True HD receiver with HDMI in, and wanting 7.1 audio. That is such a small minority of people, in this day and time, that the fact that this is getting publicized is nuts. I bet money that this "issue" would affect no members here at GT.

Thanks for the clarification. 
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« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2007, 03:15:06 PM »

Quote from: Jumangi on April 03, 2007, 02:50:25 PM

Still won't stop the SDF from jumping all over it.

He got banned so hopefully the Sony vs MS stuff will be less obtrusive and less threads will turn into battlegrounds.

* CeeKay crosses his fingers.


ps thanks for all the clarification jblank.
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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2007, 03:33:59 PM »

Quote from: jblank on April 03, 2007, 02:53:55 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 03, 2007, 02:50:08 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on April 03, 2007, 02:41:45 PM

I'm confused.  Does this matter if you are not playing HD-DVDs or is this something you would notice while playing games? 

It sounds like it might only be an issue when playing HD-DVD's.  I just find it refreshing that they're being honest about it and even suggesting a reasonable alternative.

And only if you are playing HD DVD's into a Dolby Digital True HD receiver with HDMI in, and wanting 7.1 audio. That is such a small minority of people, in this day and time, that the fact that this is getting publicized is nuts. I bet money that this "issue" would affect no members here at GT.

/Raises hand

I have 7.1 and a True HD receiver....
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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2007, 03:55:34 PM »

Quote from: Jumangi on April 03, 2007, 02:50:25 PM

This is a mountain out of a mole hill that %99.9 of people would never notice if they weren't told about it.
Pretty much.  The people who would really care about these issues (i.e. the AVS folk) aren't going to use a 360 for HD-DVD viewing *anyway* - they're going to have a dedicated HD-DVD player or three.  I also have a 7.1/TrueHD receiver, but I'm not gnashing my teeth over it - the 360 HD-DVD is a low-cost-of-entry device and does the job just fine at the moment. 
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« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2007, 03:59:18 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 03, 2007, 03:33:59 PM

Quote from: jblank on April 03, 2007, 02:53:55 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 03, 2007, 02:50:08 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on April 03, 2007, 02:41:45 PM

I'm confused.  Does this matter if you are not playing HD-DVDs or is this something you would notice while playing games? 

It sounds like it might only be an issue when playing HD-DVD's.  I just find it refreshing that they're being honest about it and even suggesting a reasonable alternative.

And only if you are playing HD DVD's into a Dolby Digital True HD receiver with HDMI in, and wanting 7.1 audio. That is such a small minority of people, in this day and time, that the fact that this is getting publicized is nuts. I bet money that this "issue" would affect no members here at GT.

/Raises hand

I have 7.1 and a True HD receiver....

Ok, well there is one. Do you have the HD DVD add on though?
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« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2007, 04:02:11 PM »

Quote from: Laner on April 03, 2007, 03:55:34 PM

Quote from: Jumangi on April 03, 2007, 02:50:25 PM

This is a mountain out of a mole hill that %99.9 of people would never notice if they weren't told about it.
Pretty much.  The people who would really care about these issues (i.e. the AVS folk) aren't going to use a 360 for HD-DVD viewing *anyway* - they're going to have a dedicated HD-DVD player or three.  I also have a 7.1/TrueHD receiver, but I'm not gnashing my teeth over it - the 360 HD-DVD is a low-cost-of-entry device and does the job just fine at the moment. 

Well put Laner.

Nobody should be mad about this. Sure, for the 1% of people out there that use the add on for HD DVD, AND have the need for 7.1 True HD, it would have been nice, but you still get DD Plus 5.1 and the downmixed DTS with the Spring patch.
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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2007, 04:35:51 PM »

Well, I do agree in principle with you jblank.  This really shouldn't affect that many people.  Let's face it, if you have that nice of AV equipment, you really should be running something better than a 360 as an HD-DVD player.  That and I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to buy the Elite anyway.

Problem is, this is just another mistake in the clusterfuck that is the 'Elite' edition.  The damn thing seems ridiculously worthless at this point.  The joke used to be that 'oooh, it's black' as a selling point, but right now that *is* the selling point.  MS is reaching Sony levels of stupidity with this thing.

I love my 360, and I wanted to buy an Elite, but right now it seems to be rather useless.  I'm better off chucking the HD-DVD add on and buying a dedicated player.

gellar
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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2007, 04:40:49 PM »

Quote from: gellar on April 03, 2007, 04:35:51 PM

Well, I do agree in principle with you jblank.  This really shouldn't affect that many people.  Let's face it, if you have that nice of AV equipment, you really should be running something better than a 360 as an HD-DVD player.  That and I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to buy the Elite anyway.

Problem is, this is just another mistake in the clusterfuck that is the 'Elite' edition.  The damn thing seems ridiculously worthless at this point.  The joke used to be that 'oooh, it's black' as a selling point, but right now that *is* the selling point.  MS is reaching Sony levels of stupidity with this thing.

I love my 360, and I wanted to buy an Elite, but right now it seems to be rather useless.  I'm better off chucking the HD-DVD add on and buying a dedicated player.

gellar

Lets speculate for a moment. What if by switching to HDMI 1.3, it added development time, testing time, and ultimately a cost to the price of the Elite, making it, oh, $30.00 more. Would you say it would be worth it?

I think this entire model was unnecessary, so lets get that out of the way, but I can see why they would use HDMI 1.2, considering it is proven, reliable, probably cheaper to develop implementation tools for, and more appropriate for todays equipment.
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« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2007, 04:49:09 PM »

Well my theory is, if you're going to have HDMI, you might as well have the *right* HDMI.  1.3 is not exactly a new standard, it's been out for nearly a year and every HD-DVD/Blu-Ray device I know of has it.  It is no less reliable or proven than 1.3.  It's a standard, not a new technique.  You are either compliant or you are not.  I don't think it was a cost or development time issue, I honestly just think MS said "Well, any benefits of having a 1.3 connector are lost because our machine won't use any of those things, so why have it."  Which again, is fine - but why have HDMI in the first place if you don't use it?

Right now the advantage of buying an Elite is to get 1080p on a TV that won't support it over a component signal for... the one game that supports 1080p.  Whee.

gellar
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« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2007, 05:12:56 PM »

Quote from: gellar on April 03, 2007, 04:49:09 PM

Well my theory is, if you're going to have HDMI, you might as well have the *right* HDMI.  1.3 is not exactly a new standard, it's been out for nearly a year and every HD-DVD/Blu-Ray device I know of has it.  It is no less reliable or proven than 1.3.  It's a standard, not a new technique.  You are either compliant or you are not.  I don't think it was a cost or development time issue, I honestly just think MS said "Well, any benefits of having a 1.3 connector are lost because our machine won't use any of those things, so why have it."  Which again, is fine - but why have HDMI in the first place if you don't use it?

Right now the advantage of buying an Elite is to get 1080p on a TV that won't support it over a component signal for... the one game that supports 1080p.  Whee.

gellar


There were some handshaking issues with some of the first 1.3 devices, with some 1.2 port TV's, that was why I mentioned "proven" as a possible pothole.
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« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2007, 05:18:28 PM »

The link above explains why; it allows people who have tvs with HDMI to be able to use that connection. Nothing more. I'm sure that's why MS has been downplaying the HDMI port issues for some time now.

Lets hope they drop a sku by the end of the year and introduce a new one with a smaller chip die to keep temps down.
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« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2007, 05:21:44 PM »

The rumoured PSP2 isn't going to get rid of the UMD drive.. they'd be alienating millions of customers if they did that. They might start looking a lot more into downloadable games but umd's (at least for games) aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

The "latest" rumour (from 3/7/07) is this one:

http://kotaku.com/gaming/top/rumor-no-denying-it-psp2-is-coming-242845.php

Edit: I'll be damned, wrong topic! Before I know it I'll be as old as KD and then it won't just be the memory failing me anymore..  icon_biggrin
Can a mod please move this to the "I love the PSP" thread please?
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« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2007, 05:30:36 PM »

Quote from: corruptrelic on April 03, 2007, 05:21:44 PM

Can a mod please move this to the "I love the PSP" thread please?

Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V icon_wink
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« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2007, 09:40:28 PM »

Quote from: jblank on April 03, 2007, 02:53:55 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 03, 2007, 02:50:08 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on April 03, 2007, 02:41:45 PM

I'm confused.  Does this matter if you are not playing HD-DVDs or is this something you would notice while playing games? 

It sounds like it might only be an issue when playing HD-DVD's.  I just find it refreshing that they're being honest about it and even suggesting a reasonable alternative.

And only if you are playing HD DVD's into a Dolby Digital True HD receiver with HDMI in, and wanting 7.1 audio. That is such a small minority of people, in this day and time, that the fact that this is getting publicized is nuts. I bet money that this "issue" would affect no members here at GT.

Theoretically it could effect me, but in practice I don;t care.  I've had 7.1 audio before, and basically all it did for me was give me more wires to work witha nd more speakers to place.  Likewise, I seriously doubt I could hear the difference in audio quality, or, if I could, that I would care.  Most game sound ain't exactly Bach, y'know? slywink

IMHO, if you are as serious about audio/video as you would have to be for this to be a problem, you'd probably already have a crazy HD-DVD setup anyway. 
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« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2007, 09:41:27 PM »

Quote from: gellar on April 03, 2007, 04:49:09 PM

Well my theory is, if you're going to have HDMI, you might as well have the *right* HDMI.  1.3 is not exactly a new standard, it's been out for nearly a year and every HD-DVD/Blu-Ray device I know of has it.  It is no less reliable or proven than 1.3.  It's a standard, not a new technique.  You are either compliant or you are not.  I don't think it was a cost or development time issue, I honestly just think MS said "Well, any benefits of having a 1.3 connector are lost because our machine won't use any of those things, so why have it."  Which again, is fine - but why have HDMI in the first place if you don't use it?

Right now the advantage of buying an Elite is to get 1080p on a TV that won't support it over a component signal for... the one game that supports 1080p.  Whee.

gellar


And it's black!
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« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2007, 09:51:43 PM »

Quote from: Geezer on April 03, 2007, 09:40:28 PM

Quote from: jblank on April 03, 2007, 02:53:55 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 03, 2007, 02:50:08 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on April 03, 2007, 02:41:45 PM

I'm confused.  Does this matter if you are not playing HD-DVDs or is this something you would notice while playing games? 

It sounds like it might only be an issue when playing HD-DVD's.  I just find it refreshing that they're being honest about it and even suggesting a reasonable alternative.

And only if you are playing HD DVD's into a Dolby Digital True HD receiver with HDMI in, and wanting 7.1 audio. That is such a small minority of people, in this day and time, that the fact that this is getting publicized is nuts. I bet money that this "issue" would affect no members here at GT.

Theoretically it could effect me, but in practice I don;t care.  I've had 7.1 audio before, and basically all it did for me was give me more wires to work witha nd more speakers to place.  Likewise, I seriously doubt I could hear the difference in audio quality, or, if I could, that I would care.  Most game sound ain't exactly Bach, y'know? slywink

IMHO, if you are as serious about audio/video as you would have to be for this to be a problem, you'd probably already have a crazy HD-DVD setup anyway. 

Well, 7.1 over HDMI is supposedly considerably better (higher fidelity) than the pseudo 7.1 that is generally available now.

You're correct though, if you've spent the money on good enough equipment (receiver/speaker) to handle the new audio formats, you probably should be looking elsewhere for your source than a 360.

gellar
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