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Question: It's now 30 days until the next generation begins.   I've noticed a lot of shifting of opinions in the last 30 days back and forth.   Which console are you buying in November?
PS4 - 42 (32.3%)
Xbone - 15 (11.5%)
Both - 13 (10%)
Neither - 19 (14.6%)
Waiting until later - 41 (31.5%)
Total Voters: 130

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Author Topic: 2890 Days until launch. Which system are you getting?  (Read 40969 times)
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msduncan
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« Reply #480 on: October 28, 2013, 10:12:52 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on October 28, 2013, 10:09:57 PM

It will be fine by launch, or there will be hell to pay for whatever side isn't fine.

Truth.

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TiLT
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« Reply #481 on: October 28, 2013, 10:12:56 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on October 28, 2013, 10:06:15 PM

Rumored to have serious problems by anonymous sources.

Why do you people keep saying this despite me saying multiple times that named journalists have confirmed the reports?
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« Reply #482 on: October 28, 2013, 10:14:09 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on October 28, 2013, 10:12:34 PM

enthusiastic, gleeful dog piling.    Or trolling. 

Well, it's a good thing we've had none of those then. Unless you've got some specific examples of enthusiastic glee or outright trolling you'd like to point out. I'm going to bed now, so you'll have hours and hours to find something before I wake up. Have fun!
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wonderpug
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« Reply #483 on: October 28, 2013, 10:18:51 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on October 28, 2013, 08:57:55 PM

You would think the PS3 would have been a huge success over the 360, then, given how much mindshare Sony had with the PS2.

You set me on a little internet scavenger hunt to try and look up reactions from the 360/PS3 release era.  I came across this Anandtech 360 vs PS3 hardware comparison that was written up before either came out, and when the Wii was still just called the Revolution.

Not to stir the pot, but given the recent 1080p/720p hoopla, I thought this part of the article (June 2005) was pretty amusing to see:
Quote
Support for 1080p will most likely be over HDMI, which will be an issue down the road.  If youíre wondering whether or not there is a tangible image quality difference between 1080p and 720p, think about it this way - 1920 x 1080 looks better on a monitor than 1280 x 720, now imagine that blown up to a 36 - 60Ē HDTV - the difference will be noticeable.

(Written when 1080p TVs were just starting to come out.)

Another snippet that amused me:
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With a 720p target for all games, you can expect all Xbox 360 titles to render (internally) at 1280 x 720.

Yup.  Not a chance we see a 360 or PS3 title rendered lower than 720.  icon_wink
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YellowKing
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« Reply #484 on: October 28, 2013, 10:58:07 PM »

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Why do you people keep saying this despite me saying multiple times that named journalists have confirmed the reports?

Because the specific rumor that Hetz referred to, and which I was addressing, comes from a guy who didn't name his sources. Give me the name of the man (or woman, or leprechaun) who confirmed the snap-in issue firsthand, and I'll retract my statement.

As far as ESRAM goes, I'm sure there is a learning curve to use it efficiently. But this is not some alien architecture. It's a direct evolution of the EDRAM the 360 used and that everybody said was so easy to develop for. So what happened? Did developers suddenly get collective amnesia? Or maybe the developers of NBA 2K14 are geniuses?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 11:03:37 PM by YellowKing » Logged
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« Reply #485 on: October 28, 2013, 11:16:57 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on October 28, 2013, 10:04:29 PM




I don't think I ever had the Lynx.  I had the Gameboy and the Game Gear (or whatever Sega's handheld was), but never had another Atari system after the 2600.  that screen looks so small.
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Ralph-Wiggum
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« Reply #486 on: October 28, 2013, 11:24:05 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on October 28, 2013, 09:44:31 PM

I propose we throw in images or arguments from outdated console wars any time the current one starts getting to bickery.



Oh man - I lusted for a Genesis and Sword of Vermillion. I was so pissed when my dad wouldn't let my brother and I sell our NES to buy a Genesis because he thought no console other than one made by Nintendo would last. I was even madder when my friend to whom we were going to sell the NES then bought a Genesis.
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Canuck
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« Reply #487 on: October 28, 2013, 11:30:52 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on October 28, 2013, 07:34:53 PM

Ok, and this may still just be a rumor, but I just read that the Xbone won't even have blast processing.
I have no idea what this even is but it sounds like something you wouldn't want your battleship to go without.
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Hetz
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« Reply #488 on: October 28, 2013, 11:58:17 PM »

Quote from: Ralph-Wiggum on October 28, 2013, 11:24:05 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on October 28, 2013, 09:44:31 PM

I propose we throw in images or arguments from outdated console wars any time the current one starts getting to bickery.



Oh man - I lusted for a Genesis and Sword of Vermillion. I was so pissed when my dad wouldn't let my brother and I sell our NES to buy a Genesis because he thought no console other than one made by Nintendo would last. I was even madder when my friend to whom we were going to sell the NES then bought a Genesis.

I had Sword of Vermillion....great game! smile
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CeeKay
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« Reply #489 on: October 28, 2013, 11:59:58 PM »

Quote from: Ralph-Wiggum on October 28, 2013, 11:24:05 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on October 28, 2013, 09:44:31 PM

I propose we throw in images or arguments from outdated console wars any time the current one starts getting to bickery.



Oh man - I lusted for a Genesis and Sword of Vermillion. I was so pissed when my dad wouldn't let my brother and I sell our NES to buy a Genesis because he thought no console other than one made by Nintendo would last. I was even madder when my friend to whom we were going to sell the NES then bought a Genesis.

well, you could always buy Sword of Vermillion now smile
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« Reply #490 on: October 29, 2013, 01:18:48 AM »

Since there's a lot of NeoGAF talk in here, just thought I'd share this GIF.  They can be kind of humorous about themselves sometimes
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YellowKing
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« Reply #491 on: October 29, 2013, 03:25:40 AM »

Albert Penello weighs in on the feeding frenzy:

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ďAs for all the other stuff blowing up over the weekend, I will make one small comment: There is a really bizarre phenomenon going on right now where the frenzy for news, drama, and behind-the-scenes dealings is clouding logic and reason. There is nothing going on behind the scenes nearly as interesting as everyone would like to believe. We are a month away from launch, and people are working hard to finalize the last of the bugs. There are still a lot things left to be done. Weíre crunching and Iím sure Sonyís crunching too.

I know people are excited. Iím sorry but things are nowhere near as dire or dramatic or exciting as everyone would like to believe. Thatís why Iím not commenting on every single random rumor that comes along, because everything I see is so drastically overblown vs. reality.ď
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« Reply #492 on: October 29, 2013, 04:24:40 AM »

There's always a frenzy when there's a cover up. Something seems to be going on behind the scenes and MS doesn't want people to know. How could anyone expect anything else? It's human nature. If MS just came out and said "yes, we're experiencing a few bumps right now with our resolution and multiplayer but don't worry, everything will be fine by Nov. 22nd" then there would be no feeding frenzy.
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TiLT
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« Reply #493 on: October 29, 2013, 06:01:39 AM »

Quote from: Canuck on October 29, 2013, 04:24:40 AM

There's always a frenzy when there's a cover up. Something seems to be going on behind the scenes and MS doesn't want people to know. How could anyone expect anything else? It's human nature. If MS just came out and said "yes, we're experiencing a few bumps right now with our resolution and multiplayer but don't worry, everything will be fine by Nov. 22nd" then there would be no feeding frenzy.

Exactly! People were contacting Albert Penello on Twitter and asking him to just confront the issues being discussed directly so they couldn't fester and grow, but he didn't. Instead he came up with vague half-answers and didn't respond to the things people were asking for, further fueling the fire.

The above quote from him is good though, and the kind of thing he should have posted right away. Now we'll just have to see what happens today, the first day with next-gen game reviews and actually comparable screenshots and videos between the two platforms. From what I've seen so far, the last few days' rumors appear to have been justified, if a little blown out of proportion.
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« Reply #494 on: October 29, 2013, 07:38:08 AM »

I have no choice but to stick to PS 4.  icon_frown
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« Reply #495 on: October 29, 2013, 07:48:31 AM »

Finally some media coverage! Kotaku wrote a quick summary of the last few days' controversy and even asked their own sources for verification, which they sort of got. They didn't get much when it comes to the reports about OS issues with the Xbox One, but they say that they trust the NeoGAF guy (and spoke with him personally) who started the whole thing.
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« Reply #496 on: October 29, 2013, 08:29:21 AM »

Quote from: YellowKing on October 28, 2013, 10:58:07 PM

As far as ESRAM goes, I'm sure there is a learning curve to use it efficiently. But this is not some alien architecture.

Yes, there's absolutely a learning curve, but it's also a bottleneck, and one that can't ever possibly be removed. You've been assuming in some of your posts that the limits caused by 32 MB of eSRAM are temporary and that developers can get around them by being clever. They really can't. They can do optimization tricks to get more out of the little stuff they can put into it, but they've always got the limit to deal with. Someone else wrote a quick description of why the eSRAM is a problem, despite its speed (which is better than the PS4's GDDR5 RAM):

Quote
So the first confusion is about the size and whether or not it is big enough for 1080p. The answer is yes, but just. 1080P has 2,073,600 pixels. 32-bit color depth (R10G10B10A2) is 4 bytes per pixel. Depth and stencil is 2 bytes per pixel. 2x MSAA is 2 bytes per pixel. Multiply all these numbers together, we get the total of 31.6MB.

I'll not go into detail about what all of these things are (I recommend reading an introduction to 3D programming if you're interested in the topic. It can be quite interesting as a gamer. I'm familiar with it due to having coded 3D for games before on both PC and Xbox 360), but suffice to say, what's descibed above is the bare minimum you need to get a basic render at 1080p with no fullscreen effects and 2x antialiasing. There aren't many ways to deal with this. Off the top of my head I can think of the following:

1) Reduce the resolution. Using the above formula, the space usage would be 21.9 MB for 900p and 14.1 MB for 720p. As you can see, this will leave much more room for additional graphical effects, making it a tempting option. This is also the reason why resolution has been reduced in this game, not clock speed or anything else. eSRAM is the bottleneck, and you can't cheat your way out of it.
2) Ditch the antialiasing. This halves the memory usage but obviously creates much uglier visuals with aliasing effects.
3) Use the DDR3 RAM for some operations. This is not a good solution as this kind of RAM is much too slow for graphical operations on a frame by frame basis. It would severely impact the framerate.

Again, there is no way around this problem. What you're going to see is that first-party Xbox One games will be built with these restrictions in mind, never using effects or graphical options that would push them above the 32 MB limit. We might also see cross-platform titles built with this limit in mind, which could theoretically make the Xbox One version run smoother than the PS4 version (if we disregard clock speed, at least) since eSRAM is faster than GDDR5. Essentially this means that they'd have to design their games by lowest common denominator instead of pushing the graphics as much as they'd like, and that might not be the most popular alternative.

Realistically we can expect most non-exclusive Xbox One titles to have reduced resolution to cope with this limitation, even going past launch. This leaves enough room in the cache to add one or two fullscreen effects and maybe antialiasing. It's not an optimization issue. It's a bottleneck. The PS4 doesn't have to deal with anything like this since it has unified memory. It can toss as many graphical options into the pot as it wishes to, and the only limitations are memory bandwidth and clock speed. That's where optimization is truly useful.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 08:31:00 AM by TiLT » Logged
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« Reply #497 on: October 29, 2013, 08:49:36 AM »

Interesting, I was wondering what those stats meant. I just make the art, I don't have to worry as much about getting it on screen unless the asset I've created goes over budget. Is that a "render target" that he's talking about taking all of esram?
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TiLT
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« Reply #498 on: October 29, 2013, 09:24:12 AM »

Quote from: Turtle on October 29, 2013, 08:49:36 AM

Interesting, I was wondering what those stats meant. I just make the art, I don't have to worry as much about getting it on screen unless the asset I've created goes over budget. Is that a "render target" that he's talking about taking all of esram?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "render target", but if you're talking about the texture used for rendering the scene to, then yes. I actually don't remember the actual terminology right now.
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« Reply #499 on: October 29, 2013, 11:02:58 AM »

Quote from: Canuck on October 29, 2013, 04:24:40 AM

There's always a frenzy when there's a cover up. Something seems to be going on behind the scenes and MS doesn't want people to know. How could anyone expect anything else? It's human nature. If MS just came out and said "yes, we're experiencing a few bumps right now with our resolution and multiplayer but don't worry, everything will be fine by Nov. 22nd" then there would be no feeding frenzy.

Just prior to a meal arriving, kitchens will be busy. Mistake this not for failure - instead anticipate the food.
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« Reply #500 on: October 29, 2013, 11:06:24 AM »

Quote from: Purge on October 29, 2013, 11:02:58 AM

Just prior to a meal arriving, kitchens will be busy. Mistake this not for failure - instead anticipate the food.

icon_lolicon_lolicon_lolicon_lolicon_lol
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TiLT
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« Reply #501 on: October 29, 2013, 11:53:59 AM »

Huh, Sony apparently just published the 1.50 PS4 firmware update to their servers. Sounds like they've got everything under control if they've got the day 1 patch ready 2.5 weeks in advance.
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« Reply #502 on: October 29, 2013, 12:04:10 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 29, 2013, 11:53:59 AM

Huh, Sony apparently just published the 1.50 PS4 firmware update to their servers. Sounds like they've got everything under control if they've got the day 1 patch ready 2.5 weeks in advance.

Yep, I just downloaded it...just in case the servers are swamped on release day. I can just pop this sucker on a flash drive and update! smile
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TiLT
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« Reply #503 on: October 29, 2013, 12:04:40 PM »

Edit: Sorry, wrong thread. Will be posting this in the BF4 thread instead.  icon_redface

Digital Foundry just admitted they fucked up their comparison video. Good to see that they're taking this head on instead of shoving it under the carpet.

Quote
"The issue here is simple; Tom had a limited amount of time to capture this stuff and was not able to do so in a normal environment. If mistakes were made normally, it would be easy to go back and correct, but with the way this worked, it wasn't really possible.

Why so different? DF uses their own hardware for capturing while DICE were handing out Elgato boxes to everyone else. The DF hardware is actually much more capable but it works differently and, without the experience of working with these new consoles, I can see a situation where settings were dialed in wrong.

JackFrags used what DICE provided and probably didn't even attempt to change any settings which, in this case, turned out to be for the best."

« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 12:07:24 PM by TiLT » Logged
TiLT
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« Reply #504 on: October 29, 2013, 12:06:09 PM »

Quote from: Hetz on October 29, 2013, 12:04:10 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 29, 2013, 11:53:59 AM

Huh, Sony apparently just published the 1.50 PS4 firmware update to their servers. Sounds like they've got everything under control if they've got the day 1 patch ready 2.5 weeks in advance.

Yep, I just downloaded it...just in case the servers are swamped on release day. I can just pop this sucker on a flash drive and update! smile

I would have done the same thing, except the console releases two weeks later over here anyway.
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« Reply #505 on: October 29, 2013, 12:41:19 PM »

This will probably get lost in the BF4 brouhaha, but an Xbox dev has debunked the OS problem rumor, as has another journalist.
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« Reply #506 on: October 29, 2013, 12:42:35 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on October 29, 2013, 12:41:19 PM

This will probably get lost in the BF4 brouhaha, but an Xbox dev has debunked the OS problem rumor, as has another journalist.

I'd really appreciate it if you posted sources along with this kind of news. I don't doubt what you're saying, but I'd really like to read it for myself instead of getting news delivered second-hand.
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YellowKing
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« Reply #507 on: October 29, 2013, 12:47:00 PM »

Quote from: TiLT
I'd really appreciate it if you posted sources along with this kind of news. I don't doubt what you're saying, but I'd really like to read it for myself instead of getting news delivered second-hand.

Quote from: TiLT
Why do you people keep saying this despite me saying multiple times that named journalists have confirmed the reports?

I have sources. They're very reliable. I can't name them, but I assure you they are named.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 12:49:19 PM by YellowKing » Logged
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« Reply #508 on: October 29, 2013, 12:48:52 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on October 29, 2013, 12:47:00 PM

Quote from: TiLT
I'd really appreciate it if you posted sources along with this kind of news. I don't doubt what you're saying, but I'd really like to read it for myself instead of getting news delivered second-hand.

Quote from: TiLT
Why do you people keep saying this despite me saying multiple times that named journalists have confirmed the reports?

Why do you have to make this confrontational? Besides, I don't see how that quote was relevant since it was referring to a link I had posted earlier that actually included those names. You just didn't read it.
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YellowKing
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« Reply #509 on: October 29, 2013, 12:49:42 PM »

http://gamingbolt.com/xbox-one-dev-debunks-os-issues-qfe5-is-several-weeks-old-os-has-been-improved-even-further
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« Reply #510 on: October 29, 2013, 12:49:49 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on October 29, 2013, 12:41:19 PM

This will probably get lost in the BF4 brouhaha, but an Xbox dev has debunked the OS problem rumor, as has another journalist.

I'd like linked sources as well - its nice to be able to read these things ourselves.
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« Reply #511 on: October 29, 2013, 12:50:11 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on October 29, 2013, 12:49:42 PM


Thanks!
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« Reply #512 on: October 29, 2013, 12:53:22 PM »

Ugh, it's just that Reddit shill as the XB1 dev.  At least the journalist isn't Kevin Dent. 
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« Reply #513 on: October 29, 2013, 01:00:24 PM »

Shocker - I post some positive Xbox news and forgeforsaken immediately discredits it. This is why I don't bother to post links half the time. What's the point?
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« Reply #514 on: October 29, 2013, 01:03:56 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on October 29, 2013, 01:00:24 PM

Shocker - I post some positive Xbox news and forgeforsaken immediately discredits it. This is why I don't bother to post links half the time. What's the point?

Just because forge doesn't think your source's opinion is worth much, it doesn't mean forge's opinion supersedes all.  By posting the link, we can all take a look and come to our own conclusions.  If you hide the link, then nobody has anything to go off of aside from your pinky swear.
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« Reply #515 on: October 29, 2013, 01:07:23 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on October 29, 2013, 01:00:24 PM

Shocker - I post some positive Xbox news and forgeforsaken immediately discredits it. This is why I don't bother to post links half the time. What's the point?

The point is, one always has to consider the source. Its something I personally learned in what equates to High School where we read things like Plato and other ancients. Most people write out from their own point of view, and to consider news /history and the like, its important to understand WHO wrote it. Its also nice to see that things are facts :-)

Thank you for posting the link!
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« Reply #516 on: October 29, 2013, 01:07:29 PM »

To be fair, I only "discredited" one of the sources.
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« Reply #517 on: October 29, 2013, 01:12:59 PM »

Well from now on y'all can find your own news. I'm taking a playbook from Purge and posting only in haiku or poetry form from now on.  icon_biggrin
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« Reply #518 on: October 29, 2013, 01:28:49 PM »

Little, Chicken had a thought.
Truth be told, his missives' caught.
To excite the masses, high and low -
Concerned with buses' killing blow.
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« Reply #519 on: October 29, 2013, 01:51:07 PM »

So BF4 is 900p on PS4 and 720 on Xbone. That's 1 for the insider leakers and 0 for clueless rumor mongers.
What and when is the next rumor to be confirmed or busted? When COD reviews come out? When is that?
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