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Author Topic: No Man's Sky - all procedurally generated everything!  (Read 4261 times)
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Rumpy
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« Reply #120 on: August 14, 2016, 06:28:44 PM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 11, 2016, 02:54:35 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 11, 2016, 02:34:04 PM

Quote from: Arclight on August 11, 2016, 10:37:47 AM

Hype to me means, puffing something up to the max of realistic expectations, venturing into stratosphere type excellence. Hype is just B.S. to me. Marketing special forces. smile
Why we even continue to be disappointed after months of un-realistic expectations being pumped at us as a norm in the game.? We all know its hype, but yet for some strange reason we get disappointed when the hype materializes into nothing more than hot air once the game is in your hands.??

We know by now that not all games will appeal to all players. Why do we still hold out for hope of the game being everything the marketers tell us it is.? Some will hate, some will love, and some, probably most, will ride the middle view.

This poor games has been shelled by hype artillery. Its almost a rubble in people's minds, and yet they haven't even loaded it up themselves.??

I'll just say that the game looks interesting enough by my own standards, and like all of you, I will buy it, and in the end, make up my own mind.


I don't know that hype is the problem.  It actually sounds like the game comes close to living up to the stuff it hyped.  It's just that there are these other aspects as well and that, in the end, the sameness of the mechanics (despite the hyped and real variety in worlds) become numbing.  Apparently, I should say, because I still haven't played it.

In addition to that, I think a large part of the backlash is the fact that the developers have been so cagey for soooo long about the actual mechanics of the game.  They continually said things such as "only old gamers ask questions like 'What do you do in No Man's Sky?', younger gamers get it" as if there was some magical quality to the game that made it rise above actual systems and mechanics that could be described. 

And to this day they still won't come out and actually say whether people can play together, even though it's very clear that you can't (they have said no ship-to-ship pvp, you won't see each other's changes to planets, etc) and they sometimes say you can (like that Late Night clip specifically saying you can).

Constantly hinting at so many hidden things and that the game has way more to it than is on the surface when in face it doesn't seem to is bound to get backlash once people come to reality.

This. I think the fact that the devs were so cagey about it led people to make assumptions about what the game would really be like. And with the game finally releasing and not aligning with what people had in their heads,  you can see why people would be disappointed.

Thus far, I'm still not sure what kind of game is it, all I know is that it's cool looking, and frankly that isn't really enough to go on. But from what I hear it's not really my type of game.
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« Reply #121 on: August 14, 2016, 08:37:43 PM »

I just don't understand the whole don't understand the game. it is pretty much as they said it was. The thing is people wanted more than that and just put their hopes on it even though it was unrealistic.

It's a exploration game with interest points, some simple crafting, some basic flight and moving around with some simple shooting. It is not a fps, flight sim or open world story game. Sure it has a few basic options in each of those but really it is an exploration and cataloging game and I am loving what little I have had time to play.

Nowhere did I ever read it would be like ED and a flight sim, or CoD with FPS game play or have a storyline like GTA V but pepole still assumed it would have those. Really people need to look at themselves and ask why they believed this.

This game has made a lot of people look like morons but lets blame the devs anyways then even though I might be a twat at least there can be a nice group of us.
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« Reply #122 on: August 14, 2016, 08:45:02 PM »

Man, I just can't put this game down. I've played for 23 hours this weekend, and I'm itching to play some more instead of going to sleep. Just realized that the hellish Extreme Radiation Rain planet I thought I'd get away from ASAP is filled with riches in the form of balls of minerals that go rolling as soon as I try to mine them, and there's plenty of gold. This place is going to make me rich, even if I have to keep feeding my specially built radiation resistance module with titanium as if it was candy. Now I just want to run around and earn money so I can buy a bigger ship (my current one has 22 slots).
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« Reply #123 on: August 14, 2016, 09:30:14 PM »

A list of fixes and workarounds is on RPS and also has the instructions on how to get the "experimental" version of the game on Steam that TiLT mentioned. Comments were on topic until someone said "My main issue is gameplay" and it was all downhill from there.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #124 on: August 14, 2016, 11:53:23 PM »

Quote from: Reemul on August 14, 2016, 08:37:43 PM

I just don't understand the whole don't understand the game.

Point is that they did hype out the technology a lot, but did not so much talk about the gameplay, which is how some can easily get a mistaken impression. I blame that more on how the game was communicated about, rather than the devs themselves. All I know is I kept looking at the game and wondering what kind of game it was, and the devs not really explaining too well what the game was.

I don't think people are expecting a space sim, unless they really have lofty ideas about the game, but I can also see why they'd think that way based on the lack of information out there.
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« Reply #125 on: August 15, 2016, 04:10:00 AM »

So, I ran a workaround for my apparently old Phenom CPU and managed to play enough to get my ship in working order.  It runs like a dog with 3 bad legs and one missing from birth.  It hitches regularly, pulls 90% of the CPU at most times and takes about 4gb of RAM.  And still has issues showing me less detail than games with far more going on than a walk in the woods and harvesting random resources.  For all the work they did with the experimental branch for us, they overlooked a detail that renders thee game unplayable without this software workaround.  Ironically, the workaround does not get recorded by Steam itself, so I still show less than 10 minutes of play.  I would be able to refund it, but as my copy was bought from Humble, I am stuck with it.  My only hope is that they eventually patch this thing up enough for me to run it. 

Beyond all thee technical failings, the game seems decent as an exploration game and mediocre as anything else.  Don't fret if you were wary of it's supposed survival aspects.  It boils down to harvesting any number of carbon based plant in sight, of which you could not find a spot anywhere on the planet without some, harvesting them for about 5 seconds and refilling your life support suit.  It takes so little time or effort I do not consider it survival in any meaning of the word.  Once you get over the minimal need to refill a few bars every so often, you are left with scavenging the resources you need to fix/fill whatever it is you need to fix/fill and scanning everything in sight with the goggles you have when you crashed, (also broken, initially) and walking/flying/jetpacking to the nearest icon on your map before it disappears.  You eventually may stumble on an alien animal, whose existence to the universe is worth 1000 credits to you to scan and upload (imagine if our world worked on this principle), of which there are less than a dozen on any one planet, thankfully (be fearful our planet ends up like these ones).  You can also find an occasional sentient who you can consider patting on the head in what I hope is in a condescending manner, or who might deem to give you credits just for saying hello, like the space hobo you are.  You can scan his stuff and hope to unlock new tech that you cannot build or equip due to limited inventory, destroy his plants before he forgets to water them, or attempt to discern what he says with limited knowledge provided via those obelisks like the one HAL gave to the apes (one word per obelisk, as apparently their memory capacity is quite limited).

I do not expect this game to be all that interesting to the majority of people as you have to enjoy exploration for its own sake, rather than many of the mechanics that most games utilize.  Fun is highly subjective here.  Use caution and be sure to buy it where you might be able to return it if you are not convinced by your own need to explore.
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« Reply #126 on: August 15, 2016, 01:31:38 PM »

A lot of what I read is like this RPS impressions piece on PC version -- that much of the game is screwy and clumsy and poorly designed, that much of the game that sounded exciting to me (space combat) is mediocre at best, that much of the nuts and bolts gaming is tedious unless you're truly into crafting and inventory micro-management. But... that he still can't stop playing it.  icon_smile

Wot I Think: No Manís Sky
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/08/15/no-mans-sky-pc-review/
Quote
This likely reads as an overwhelmingly negative review, and itís deserved Ė No Manís Sky is massively flawed, and systematically poorly designed. But itís also a massive playground of potential and opportunity, and its sheer ambition, for all its massive stumbles, is rewarded in play.

Itís bloody awful that the whole time Iíve been playing, the dozens of hours on PC this weekend, Iíve been thinking about the PS4 hastily hooked up to the TV at the other side of my office and wishing I were still playing over there.

But I can see the PC version improving come the patches it desperately needs, and I can fantasise about the possible reworkings of the abysmal ship controls and stupid inventories and long mouse presses, and then this version will step forward and take the lead. Itís not there yet, but it could be.
Couple of the comments were interesting too:
Quote
Itís simply by far the worst game Iíve ever loved.
...
I am enjoying it, but I literally fight with the controls to play rather than them being hidden things you forget about once you know them.
So I feel pretty sure it's not for me, at least in its current state. I'll keep it on the wish list though.

The apparently poor use of mouse and drag'n'drop reminds me a lot of the indie cheapie How to Survive. There they couldn't be bothered to convert the gamepad-type inventory management (much of it using shoulder buttons to scroll L-R through inventory items) to the more typical drag'n'drop that virtually every PC-native game uses as a matter of course. I'd like to think in NMS case though, with this volume of sales, the dev can afford to do something about it in this case, if it wants to.

It could be like some other AAA-price titles like Shadows of Mordor and Mad Max where I did get in the water once the title was on sale. NMS has sold so astronomically (inexplicably?) well on both platforms though, that it doesn't sound like Sony would need to put it on sale on Steam any time soon.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 01:34:57 PM by Blackjack » Logged

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Arclight
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« Reply #127 on: August 15, 2016, 03:56:47 PM »

Took me 2hrs. of play time to realize, this game needs two more years in development. Love steam's refund policy. I would like to know the ratio of purchased games vs. returned games. Talk about false advertising.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 03:59:03 PM by Arclight » Logged

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« Reply #128 on: August 15, 2016, 04:58:39 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on August 15, 2016, 03:56:47 PM

Took me 2hrs. of play time to realize, this game needs two more years in development. Love steam's refund policy. I would like to know the ratio of purchased games vs. returned games. Talk about false advertising.


I don't think it was false advertising.  I think it's more of,  I'm not going to tell you what the game is about because it's a big secret and it would ruin the suprise.  But in reality he chose to not detail the game because there really wasn't much to it and know that it would be polarizing amongst gamers. 
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« Reply #129 on: August 15, 2016, 06:38:02 PM »

Quote from: Blackjack on August 15, 2016, 01:31:38 PM

A lot of what I read is like this RPS impressions piece on PC version -- that much of the game is screwy and clumsy and poorly designed, that much of the game that sounded exciting to me (space combat) is mediocre at best, that much of the nuts and bolts gaming is tedious unless you're truly into crafting and inventory micro-management. But... that he still can't stop playing it.  icon_smile

Wot I Think: No Manís Sky
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/08/15/no-mans-sky-pc-review/
Quote
This likely reads as an overwhelmingly negative review, and itís deserved Ė No Manís Sky is massively flawed, and systematically poorly designed. But itís also a massive playground of potential and opportunity, and its sheer ambition, for all its massive stumbles, is rewarded in play.

Itís bloody awful that the whole time Iíve been playing, the dozens of hours on PC this weekend, Iíve been thinking about the PS4 hastily hooked up to the TV at the other side of my office and wishing I were still playing over there.

But I can see the PC version improving come the patches it desperately needs, and I can fantasise about the possible reworkings of the abysmal ship controls and stupid inventories and long mouse presses, and then this version will step forward and take the lead. Itís not there yet, but it could be.
Couple of the comments were interesting too:
Quote
Itís simply by far the worst game Iíve ever loved.
...
I am enjoying it, but I literally fight with the controls to play rather than them being hidden things you forget about once you know them.
So I feel pretty sure it's not for me, at least in its current state. I'll keep it on the wish list though.

The apparently poor use of mouse and drag'n'drop reminds me a lot of the indie cheapie How to Survive. There they couldn't be bothered to convert the gamepad-type inventory management (much of it using shoulder buttons to scroll L-R through inventory items) to the more typical drag'n'drop that virtually every PC-native game uses as a matter of course. I'd like to think in NMS case though, with this volume of sales, the dev can afford to do something about it in this case, if it wants to.

It could be like some other AAA-price titles like Shadows of Mordor and Mad Max where I did get in the water once the title was on sale. NMS has sold so astronomically (inexplicably?) well on both platforms though, that it doesn't sound like Sony would need to put it on sale on Steam any time soon.

That review hits exactly my experience with NMS down to the worst game I love to play.  I don't think I could add anything else.  I am currently on a moderately hostile planet looking for one last animal so I can earn 250k credits and that should be enough to buy a much better ship but I can't find the dang thing no matter how long I search.  I found an item that sells for good money and is plentiful on the planet but finding a selling location is difficult so I end up inventory full very often.  Ahh well I need to find that damn animal so back at it, I could just leave but I have made it my goal to complete this task which should make going to another world fresh.
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« Reply #130 on: August 16, 2016, 06:50:41 PM »

There was a couple new updates for the Experimental Branch released on Steam today supposedly fixing some performance on many CPUs, supporting AMD Phenoms, saves, etc.

There was also a new "game-ready" Geforce driver released that includes some support for NMS in addition to other games.
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« Reply #131 on: August 17, 2016, 02:06:31 PM »

The experimental branch was indeed updated at least twice yesterday.  After the first, I was actually able to play without the SDE emulator, so it ran pretty flawlessly.  I got about 40 minutes in before heading off to work. Another update was scheduled when I got home, so I backed up my install folder, let it patch and played another few hours.  Other than the pop in you get whenever you fly, it's been good.  I had already scanned a number of things while playing the SDE emulator and found that when I finally got online with it (SDE required that you play offline) my starting system had already been 60% mapped by someone else.  Kind of screwy when you consider that trillions of trillions of planets are in the game, but it was probably due to my not being logged in, so the server dumped us in the same system.  At least he's not naming them in a dickish manner, and I still got to get the credits for claiming them on my own game. 

I really wish this game had some kind of map/user set waypoint system.  I keep finding useful stuff I would love to go back to, but having to keep track of it manually is a bit of a pain, and makes finding the occasional merchant more of a one-time thing.  I also wish that the local scan items you find would stay visible longer after you notice them.  I've already found a few backpack upgrades, a slightly better (although funkier looking) ship and enough new techs that I can eventually build.  I am still in that honeymoon phase of "just one more waypoint", but the game so far is scratching the itch I had following this through the years.  Not perfect, but near enough in some ways and more accessible than Elite Dangerous.
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« Reply #132 on: August 18, 2016, 02:44:31 AM »

Well I burned out on this game fast. After about 25 hours I realized I'd seen just about everything the game had to offer. The only reason to keep playing was to buy a better ship. I got Elite Dangerous on the xbone to fill the space exploration void. I sincerely hope future patches add to NMS because it is absolutely amazing for a few dozen hours. Plus it crashes - a lot. At least I didn't lose any progress from crashes.

 I got Elite Dangerous on the xbone to fill the space exploration void for now.
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« Reply #133 on: August 18, 2016, 04:19:31 AM »

Quote from: Crusis on August 18, 2016, 02:44:31 AM

Well I burned out on this game fast. After about 25 hours I realized I'd seen just about everything the game had to offer. The only reason to keep playing was to buy a better ship. I got Elite Dangerous on the xbone to fill the space exploration void. I sincerely hope future patches add to NMS because it is absolutely amazing for a few dozen hours. Plus it crashes - a lot. At least I didn't lose any progress from crashes.

 I got Elite Dangerous on the xbone to fill the space exploration void for now.

Have you explored anything other than F-class stars? If not, you haven't seen everything the game has to offer. Tongue
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« Reply #134 on: August 22, 2016, 03:32:04 PM »

Angry Joe review

NSFW for language
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« Reply #135 on: August 22, 2016, 04:05:20 PM »

Quote from: farley2k on August 22, 2016, 03:32:04 PM

Angry Joe review

NSFW for language

When you hear it like this, makes you wonder when the lawsuits are gonna start rolling out. Blatant lying.
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« Reply #136 on: August 22, 2016, 05:01:39 PM »

Quote from: farley2k on August 22, 2016, 03:32:04 PM

Angry Joe review

NSFW for language
After seeing what happens when you reach the center I donít think I could even buy this game on sale.  Getting that after spending however many hours would infuriate me to no end. 
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« Reply #137 on: August 27, 2016, 12:12:47 AM »

And now it appears as if there is a limited number of discoveries you can make before it starts overwriting the old ones.  Cripes.
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« Reply #138 on: August 27, 2016, 01:32:31 AM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 27, 2016, 12:12:47 AM

And now it appears as if there is a limited number of discoveries you can make before it starts overwriting the old ones.  Cripes.

They need to purge old discoveries because with quintrillions of planets, the storage cost is going to be super high to be able to store all discoveries permanently.

But still it is surprising they only last two weeks. I thought they'll purge old discoveries from 6 months ago which is reasonable. Two weeks is probably too soon unless the developers count on people not playing more than two weeks or never return to the place they were in more than 2 weeks ago.
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« Reply #139 on: August 27, 2016, 02:06:59 AM »

Has there been any kind of developer response to all of the negativity?

I want to like the game, I think there is potential. But its almost totally unrealized. After a couple of hours, you've had just about enough of work without reward. There is just nothing to get excited about  in the game-play. No anticipation, no real goals other than, "one more planet". No rewards for what you're doing. You're doing, for the sake of doing. And that gets old fast.
All the video's I've seen with the developer lying about the game, and yet I can't believe Steam wouldn't take some kind of action. They should.
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« Reply #140 on: August 27, 2016, 02:13:08 AM »

I don't think he was lying.  I think he was overenthusiastic.  He's not a charlatan, he just didn't know when to stop promising things without knowing if they could be delivered.

I feel the same about Peter Molyneux, except he never learned the lesson, and we just had to learn to take pretty much anything he said with a grain of salt.

But such is the world of video game creation.  It's not really an actionable offense. Nor should it be.  The second we punish these guys for dreaming, even if they're doing it out loud when they shouldn't, we tell them and anyone else to stop dreaming, and that's when what little creativity which remains in the field will die.
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« Reply #141 on: August 27, 2016, 02:53:31 AM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 27, 2016, 02:13:08 AM

I don't think he was lying.  I think he was overenthusiastic.  He's not a charlatan, he just didn't know when to stop promising things without knowing if they could be delivered.

I feel the same about Peter Molyneux, except he never learned the lesson, and we just had to learn to take pretty much anything he said with a grain of salt.

But such is the world of video game creation.  It's not really an actionable offense. Nor should it be.  The second we punish these guys for dreaming, even if they're doing it out loud when they shouldn't, we tell them and anyone else to stop dreaming, and that's when what little creativity which remains in the field will die.

Liar or not,  even after the game released and two people arrived to the same location and can't see each others, he didn't come clean and say that there is no multiplayer code to let people see each other. Instead he wrote:

Two players finding each other on a stream in the first day - that has blown my mind.

We added a 'scan for other players' in the Galaxy Map to try to encourage this happening. We wanted this to happen - but the first day?

We want people to be aware they are in a shared universe. We added online features, and some Easter Eggs to create cool moments.

We hope to see those happening... but too many of you are playing right now. More than we could have predicted.

---

Those are what he posted after PS4 release and before PC. He kept misleading until the PC release. After that he went quiet.



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« Reply #142 on: August 27, 2016, 04:36:11 AM »

He said there were parts of the game in the completed version that weren't. That's not dreaming, that's lying. Straight up, he knew what he was saying.
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« Reply #143 on: August 27, 2016, 07:15:14 AM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 27, 2016, 12:12:47 AM

And now it appears as if there is a limited number of discoveries you can make before it starts overwriting the old ones.  Cripes.

Don't just jump on the rumor wagon based on anecdotal evidence. The person who started this rumor wasn't connected to the servers when he discovered the systems he later lost, and many others weren't either because the servers were unstable for the first few days.
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« Reply #144 on: August 27, 2016, 03:16:16 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on August 27, 2016, 04:36:11 AM

He said there were parts of the game in the completed version that weren't. That's not dreaming, that's lying. Straight up, he knew what he was saying.

Show me.

All I've seen him talking about is all of the stuff "You'll be able to do..." which is exactly the kind of thing Molyneux was doing.   The most memorable example for many is the acorn thing.  For the original Fable, he said you'd be able to knock an acorn off of a tree, plant it and come back years later to see a tree.  This turned out to be patently false (at least until Fable II, when there was a mission called "the Golden Acorn").  However, I'm certain that Molyneux was not trying to pull the wool over the gaming public's eyes and say blatantly false things to get people to buy his game, but that he fully intended the acorn thing to be something you could do before somewhere down the line, someone said, "Um, Peter..." and he discovered that it was either impossible to code or was told that with the deadline, you can either have this acorn thing or the character can have arms.

Everything I've seen from the No Man's Sky guy seems to be the same.  He's overly enthusiastic about what he wants to do without thinking through about what's going to make it into the final release.  Hell, he may still be hoping to add all of this stuff in future patches.  Things are cut from game releases at the last minute because they're not quite as ready as the designers hoped they would be.  Many designers and studios learn to not talk about all of this stuff for just this reason, but that hasn't happened here.

Even that quote about being blown away by the people meeting already shows that he's got nothing but enthusiasm for the game, but it blew up in his face.  It could be he finally got the message that he needed to stop talking.  Or, more likely, he needed to focus on patching the game like crazy.  There have been three already and talk about more.

I'm not trying to say it's not disappointing or frustrating that the game isn't quite the promised land we were, er, promised.  And I get that some folks are mad and need someone to blame.  I'm just saying that I don't think the blame should be on Murray for "lying" because it doesn't seem to apply.  And, as I mentioned earlier, if legal action gets taken (even if it fails, which is likely), it's going to put a clamp down on creativity.  Not just on Murray, but other dreamers, too.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 03:20:45 PM by Bullwinkle » Logged

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« Reply #145 on: August 27, 2016, 03:29:11 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 27, 2016, 03:16:16 PM

Quote from: Arclight on August 27, 2016, 04:36:11 AM

He said there were parts of the game in the completed version that weren't. That's not dreaming, that's lying. Straight up, he knew what he was saying.

Show me.

All I've seen him talking about is all of the stuff "You'll be able to do..." which is exactly the kind of thing Molyneux was doing.   The most memorable example for many is the acorn thing.  For the original Fable, he said you'd be able to knock an acorn off of a tree, plant it and come back years later to see a tree.  This turned out to be patently false (at least until Fable II, when there was a mission called "the Golden Acorn").  However, I'm certain that Molyneux was not trying to pull the wool over the gaming public's eyes and say blatantly false things to get people to buy his game, but that he fully intended the acorn thing to be something you could do before somewhere down the line, someone said, "Um, Peter..." and he discovered that it was either impossible to code or was told that with the deadline, you can either have this acorn thing or the character can have arms.

Everything I've seen from the No Man's Sky guy seems to be the same.  He's overly enthusiastic about what he wants to do without thinking through about what's going to make it into the final release.  Hell, he may still be hoping to add all of this stuff in future patches.  Things are cut from game releases at the last minute because they're not quite as ready as the designers hoped they would be.  Many designers and studios learn to not talk about all of this stuff for just this reason, but that hasn't happened here.

Even that quote about being blown away by the people meeting already shows that he's got nothing but enthusiasm for the game, but it blew up in his face.  It could be he finally got the message that he needed to stop talking.  Or, more likely, he needed to focus on patching the game like crazy.  There have been three already and talk about more.

I'm not trying to say it's not disappointing or frustrating that the game isn't quite the promised land we were, er, promised.  And I get that some folks are mad and need someone to blame.  I'm just saying that I don't think the blame should be on Murray for "lying" because it doesn't seem to apply.  And, as I mentioned earlier, if legal action gets taken (even if it fails, which is likely), it's going to put a clamp down on creativity.  Not just on Murray, but other dreamers, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuz3WETd4ug


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz1oFNUZ-P0
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 03:37:26 PM by Victoria Raverna » Logged
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« Reply #146 on: August 27, 2016, 04:26:15 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on August 27, 2016, 07:15:14 AM

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 27, 2016, 12:12:47 AM

And now it appears as if there is a limited number of discoveries you can make before it starts overwriting the old ones.  Cripes.

Don't just jump on the rumor wagon based on anecdotal evidence. The person who started this rumor wasn't connected to the servers when he discovered the systems he later lost, and many others weren't either because the servers were unstable for the first few days.

I'm sorry, when there are never any official words on things there is little to go on but anecdotal evidence.  And there were more than the one person reporting the similar issue in that thread, including people who were able to test and reproduce the error as they discovered new planets. 

If we're not going to report on potentially game breaking bugs, what the fuck do you want to talk about?  I'm still waiting for the multiplayer that you insisted was in the game...

Quote from: TiLT
Your speculation, while fine in isolation, is pointless when Sean Murray has said multiple times, in no uncertain terms, that you can meet and interact with other players. Among other things, he's said that the only way to know what your character looks like is to meet other players, though the game won't ever tell you that it's a player and not an NPC you're looking at. Speculate all you want, but as long as Murray isn't replying to this discussion (and he's being very active on social media these days, replying to all kinds of stuff) we can reasonably safely assume that the plans haven't changed, but that there is some other reason those two players haven't met. For all we know, it could be related to the stuff at the center of the galaxy. It's more likely it has to do with the hammered servers.
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« Reply #147 on: August 27, 2016, 05:00:08 PM »

Quote from: Victoria Raverna on August 27, 2016, 03:29:11 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 27, 2016, 03:16:16 PM

Quote from: Arclight on August 27, 2016, 04:36:11 AM

He said there were parts of the game in the completed version that weren't. That's not dreaming, that's lying. Straight up, he knew what he was saying.

Show me.

All I've seen him talking about is all of the stuff "You'll be able to do..." which is exactly the kind of thing Molyneux was doing.   The most memorable example for many is the acorn thing.  For the original Fable, he said you'd be able to knock an acorn off of a tree, plant it and come back years later to see a tree.  This turned out to be patently false (at least until Fable II, when there was a mission called "the Golden Acorn").  However, I'm certain that Molyneux was not trying to pull the wool over the gaming public's eyes and say blatantly false things to get people to buy his game, but that he fully intended the acorn thing to be something you could do before somewhere down the line, someone said, "Um, Peter..." and he discovered that it was either impossible to code or was told that with the deadline, you can either have this acorn thing or the character can have arms.

Everything I've seen from the No Man's Sky guy seems to be the same.  He's overly enthusiastic about what he wants to do without thinking through about what's going to make it into the final release.  Hell, he may still be hoping to add all of this stuff in future patches.  Things are cut from game releases at the last minute because they're not quite as ready as the designers hoped they would be.  Many designers and studios learn to not talk about all of this stuff for just this reason, but that hasn't happened here.

Even that quote about being blown away by the people meeting already shows that he's got nothing but enthusiasm for the game, but it blew up in his face.  It could be he finally got the message that he needed to stop talking.  Or, more likely, he needed to focus on patching the game like crazy.  There have been three already and talk about more.

I'm not trying to say it's not disappointing or frustrating that the game isn't quite the promised land we were, er, promised.  And I get that some folks are mad and need someone to blame.  I'm just saying that I don't think the blame should be on Murray for "lying" because it doesn't seem to apply.  And, as I mentioned earlier, if legal action gets taken (even if it fails, which is likely), it's going to put a clamp down on creativity.  Not just on Murray, but other dreamers, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuz3WETd4ug


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz1oFNUZ-P0

The guy who made the first video with the "Lying for 8 minutes" title, even says he regrets the title and that he shouldn't be vilified.  Everything in that video I've seen and/or read before and it doesn't change anything.  He's talking about what he's expecting/hoping to have in the game.  He's promising the ideal that's in his head, without considering the consequences if it can't all be delivered.

Notice when he says, "At the moment, you can land on asteroids."  That's one of the few times where you get an indication that he knows some stuff isn't going to make it into the launch build.  I get the impression that, like with Molyneux, people were telling him to stop promising everything, but he can't help himself.

The second one has some nice legal gobbledygook and is well thought out.  And, yes, it shows that a case could be built against Hello Games or Murray.  But just because it can, doesn't mean it should, as I've mentioned.  

He talks about the "Sim City Problem" which is very similar to the Molyneux situation.  He talks about every sim supposed to have been calculated, but then the background system couldn't actually do that.  He then says this mean the public had been lied to.  That's a big leap.  I haven't researched the Sim City thing, but I seem to remember that being an early statement, but that it became clear even before release that it wasn't going to be the case (I remember a similar thing with being able to go from Sim City to following your individual Sims in the Sims game or from Sim Earth to Sim City).  To me, that makes it a clear case of designers having a plan and wanting to fulfill it, but realizing down the road that they won't be able to do it.

Murray and Molyneux (and Will Wright, to a degree) are selling the dream.  And it's because they are excited about the idea of it.  To me, when the guy in the video talks about how careful Murray is about being vague in his comments, it's because the suits had learned from Molyneux's blunders and had a sit down about what to say and what not to say (as the video implies).  This essentially is putting a lid on his enthusiasm, creating the problem. On a larger scale, a lawsuit would do the same damage.

When the guy says he doesn't believe the excuse of an excited developer who didn't know better is a valid one, even for indies, well, that's another big leap into bias territory*.  Molyneux also had suits telling him not to say these things, but he did it anyway.  And it was clear with Molyneux, especially over time, that it was because he just couldn't help himself.  His enthusiasm clearly outweighed the suit-driven shushing.  I believe the same to be true with Murray.

In the end, neither of these videos show him to be lying, though the second at least puts the argument forth in a clear and researched manner.  I just don't agree with it.



*Not to say that I'm not biased either, of course.  And just to point out, I think the game is a beautiful mess, full of promise that hasn't been delivered.  My bias has more to do with the creative side of game creation.  I'm a creative myself, and I can't stand the idea of people killing that side of things.  I do not believe Murray was a snake oil salesman, as the guy calls him, more like a guy who wanted to give people something to cure their ills that turned out to be snake oil (but maybe could still be a cure-all if he adds enough ingredients).
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 05:05:29 PM by Bullwinkle » Logged

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« Reply #148 on: August 27, 2016, 05:11:02 PM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 27, 2016, 04:26:15 PM

I'm sorry, when there are never any official words on things there is little to go on but anecdotal evidence.  And there were more than the one person reporting the similar issue in that thread, including people who were able to test and reproduce the error as they discovered new planets. 

If we're not going to report on potentially game breaking bugs, what the fuck do you want to talk about?  I'm still waiting for the multiplayer that you insisted was in the game...

It's not a bug but the result of the discoveries not having been uploaded properly to the servers due to them being overloaded in the first few days. The person who originally reported the problem later got the "lost" discoveries back when his game synced up.

It's kind of fascinating how people will jump all over the dev for saying things that turned out not to be true, but then turn around and not apply the same standards to themselves when spreading rumors about what's true or not in the game (see: the list of missing features someone compiled on Reddit, which was full of features that actually were in the game but which the author just hadn't stumbled upon because of the RNG).

This game's release has been a clusterfuck of the worst kind of internet echo chamber. I normally love following discussions about new games on forums, but this game has been frustrating to follow because of all the people who aren't the target audience shitting all over it, and most of them haven't even played the game to begin with. There's a bizarre form of schadenfreude over the game's release, as if some people are insulted that someone would dare release something that doesn't appeal to them.
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« Reply #149 on: August 27, 2016, 05:31:16 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on August 27, 2016, 05:11:02 PM

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 27, 2016, 04:26:15 PM

I'm sorry, when there are never any official words on things there is little to go on but anecdotal evidence.  And there were more than the one person reporting the similar issue in that thread, including people who were able to test and reproduce the error as they discovered new planets. 

If we're not going to report on potentially game breaking bugs, what the fuck do you want to talk about?  I'm still waiting for the multiplayer that you insisted was in the game...

It's not a bug but the result of the discoveries not having been uploaded properly to the servers due to them being overloaded in the first few days. The person who originally reported the problem later got the "lost" discoveries back when his game synced up.

It's kind of fascinating how people will jump all over the dev for saying things that turned out not to be true, but then turn around and not apply the same standards to themselves when spreading rumors about what's true or not in the game (see: the list of missing features someone compiled on Reddit, which was full of features that actually were in the game but which the author just hadn't stumbled upon because of the RNG).

This game's release has been a clusterfuck of the worst kind of internet echo chamber. I normally love following discussions about new games on forums, but this game has been frustrating to follow because of all the people who aren't the target audience shitting all over it, and most of them haven't even played the game to begin with. There's a bizarre form of schadenfreude over the game's release, as if some people are insulted that someone would dare release something that doesn't appeal to them.

Kind of like people who won't admit they were wrong about features they insisted were in the game, but turned out not to be...

Be as defensive as you want, but they clearly stated multiple times that there was multiplayer, that you could fight other players, and see other players.  It's not in the game.  That is a lie.

Also, that original Reddit thread compiling the list of features not in the game was actually updated over time as each feature was proven to exist.  So he admitted he was wrong in those instances.  I'm not sure why you insist on spreading false facts of your own so consistently.

And once again, the multiple people reporting the loss of early discoveries were all connected when this was being reproduced NOW.  It seems more related to the game only caching a certain number of discoveries for your player and you only have access to that most recent list until you go back to the new area, uninstall the game and reinstall so it caches to the closest to that location or something.  It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the day 1 server issues and other people are still having the same issues right now.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 05:37:15 PM by EngineNo9 » Logged

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« Reply #150 on: August 27, 2016, 05:39:11 PM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 27, 2016, 05:31:16 PM

Quote from: TiLT on August 27, 2016, 05:11:02 PM

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 27, 2016, 04:26:15 PM

I'm sorry, when there are never any official words on things there is little to go on but anecdotal evidence.  And there were more than the one person reporting the similar issue in that thread, including people who were able to test and reproduce the error as they discovered new planets. 

If we're not going to report on potentially game breaking bugs, what the fuck do you want to talk about?  I'm still waiting for the multiplayer that you insisted was in the game...

It's not a bug but the result of the discoveries not having been uploaded properly to the servers due to them being overloaded in the first few days. The person who originally reported the problem later got the "lost" discoveries back when his game synced up.

It's kind of fascinating how people will jump all over the dev for saying things that turned out not to be true, but then turn around and not apply the same standards to themselves when spreading rumors about what's true or not in the game (see: the list of missing features someone compiled on Reddit, which was full of features that actually were in the game but which the author just hadn't stumbled upon because of the RNG).

This game's release has been a clusterfuck of the worst kind of internet echo chamber. I normally love following discussions about new games on forums, but this game has been frustrating to follow because of all the people who aren't the target audience shitting all over it, and most of them haven't even played the game to begin with. There's a bizarre form of schadenfreude over the game's release, as if some people are insulted that someone would dare release something that doesn't appeal to them.

Kind of like people who won't admit they were wrong about features they insisted were in the game, but turned out not to be...

Be as defensive as you want, but they clearly stated multiple times that there was multiplayer, that you could fight other players, and see other players.  It's not in the game.  That is a lie.

No.  When he said that, it was probably in the works.  However, later, he said that it wasn't a true multiplayer experience, and that you shouldn't go in looking for that.

As with most games, I stopped following this before release (I picked up on most of the info later, to see what the hubbub was about).  I still got that message loud and clear.

And the fact that there's a Multiplayer label on the back of the box that was later covered up, shows how late in development certain aspects had to be changed.

Stop throwing around the word "lie" when, at the very least, it's unclear if it applies at all.
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« Reply #151 on: August 27, 2016, 07:54:02 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 27, 2016, 05:39:11 PM

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 27, 2016, 05:31:16 PM

Quote from: TiLT on August 27, 2016, 05:11:02 PM

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 27, 2016, 04:26:15 PM

I'm sorry, when there are never any official words on things there is little to go on but anecdotal evidence.  And there were more than the one person reporting the similar issue in that thread, including people who were able to test and reproduce the error as they discovered new planets. 

If we're not going to report on potentially game breaking bugs, what the fuck do you want to talk about?  I'm still waiting for the multiplayer that you insisted was in the game...

It's not a bug but the result of the discoveries not having been uploaded properly to the servers due to them being overloaded in the first few days. The person who originally reported the problem later got the "lost" discoveries back when his game synced up.

It's kind of fascinating how people will jump all over the dev for saying things that turned out not to be true, but then turn around and not apply the same standards to themselves when spreading rumors about what's true or not in the game (see: the list of missing features someone compiled on Reddit, which was full of features that actually were in the game but which the author just hadn't stumbled upon because of the RNG).

This game's release has been a clusterfuck of the worst kind of internet echo chamber. I normally love following discussions about new games on forums, but this game has been frustrating to follow because of all the people who aren't the target audience shitting all over it, and most of them haven't even played the game to begin with. There's a bizarre form of schadenfreude over the game's release, as if some people are insulted that someone would dare release something that doesn't appeal to them.

Kind of like people who won't admit they were wrong about features they insisted were in the game, but turned out not to be...

Be as defensive as you want, but they clearly stated multiple times that there was multiplayer, that you could fight other players, and see other players.  It's not in the game.  That is a lie.

No.  When he said that, it was probably in the works.  However, later, he said that it wasn't a true multiplayer experience, and that you shouldn't go in looking for that.

As with most games, I stopped following this before release (I picked up on most of the info later, to see what the hubbub was about).  I still got that message loud and clear.

And the fact that there's a Multiplayer label on the back of the box that was later covered up, shows how late in development certain aspects had to be changed.

Stop throwing around the word "lie" when, at the very least, it's unclear if it applies at all.

Let me guess, you're a Lawyer? You'd make a good one.  slywink
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« Reply #152 on: August 27, 2016, 08:30:19 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on August 27, 2016, 07:54:02 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 27, 2016, 05:39:11 PM

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 27, 2016, 05:31:16 PM

Quote from: TiLT on August 27, 2016, 05:11:02 PM

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 27, 2016, 04:26:15 PM

I'm sorry, when there are never any official words on things there is little to go on but anecdotal evidence.  And there were more than the one person reporting the similar issue in that thread, including people who were able to test and reproduce the error as they discovered new planets. 

If we're not going to report on potentially game breaking bugs, what the fuck do you want to talk about?  I'm still waiting for the multiplayer that you insisted was in the game...

It's not a bug but the result of the discoveries not having been uploaded properly to the servers due to them being overloaded in the first few days. The person who originally reported the problem later got the "lost" discoveries back when his game synced up.

It's kind of fascinating how people will jump all over the dev for saying things that turned out not to be true, but then turn around and not apply the same standards to themselves when spreading rumors about what's true or not in the game (see: the list of missing features someone compiled on Reddit, which was full of features that actually were in the game but which the author just hadn't stumbled upon because of the RNG).

This game's release has been a clusterfuck of the worst kind of internet echo chamber. I normally love following discussions about new games on forums, but this game has been frustrating to follow because of all the people who aren't the target audience shitting all over it, and most of them haven't even played the game to begin with. There's a bizarre form of schadenfreude over the game's release, as if some people are insulted that someone would dare release something that doesn't appeal to them.

Kind of like people who won't admit they were wrong about features they insisted were in the game, but turned out not to be...

Be as defensive as you want, but they clearly stated multiple times that there was multiplayer, that you could fight other players, and see other players.  It's not in the game.  That is a lie.

No.  When he said that, it was probably in the works.  However, later, he said that it wasn't a true multiplayer experience, and that you shouldn't go in looking for that.

As with most games, I stopped following this before release (I picked up on most of the info later, to see what the hubbub was about).  I still got that message loud and clear.

And the fact that there's a Multiplayer label on the back of the box that was later covered up, shows how late in development certain aspects had to be changed.

Stop throwing around the word "lie" when, at the very least, it's unclear if it applies at all.

Let me guess, you're a Lawyer? You'd make a good one.  slywink

Naw, as I mentioned, I'm a creative type.  So I'm getting paid creative dollars.  I wish I was a lawyer.

OTOH, my dad was a lawyer, so I guess by the transitive property that gradeschoolers use, I'm almost a lawyer.
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