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Author Topic: [PS3] Entitlements? WTF?  (Read 2101 times)
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Destructor
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« on: July 30, 2006, 03:08:14 AM »

Ripped from elsewhere:

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According to EGM's Dan Hsu during this week's EGM Live podcast, the Sony Playstation 3 will be awarding their own version of Xbox 360 Achievements, but will instead be calling them "entitlements."


So, do I get an 'Entitlement' for just buying the PS3? biggrin
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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2006, 04:06:10 AM »

Yeah it's dumb.  The name is dumb.  'Entitlements'?  Is it going to be a system where you'll be named something if you 'acheive' something in a game?
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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2006, 04:23:21 AM »

Quote from: "depward"
Yeah it's dumb.  The name is dumb.  'Entitlements'?  Is it going to be a system where you'll be named something if you 'acheive' something in a game?

No, see, by working hard on a game, you're 'entitled' to the award.

Man, that sounds even more dumb than it seemed when I typed it.
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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2006, 04:43:55 AM »

I believe the original name was going to be "No, really, we thought of this completely on our own, long before the other guys", but they already used that name for the PS3 controller  :twisted:
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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2006, 05:09:39 AM »

Ok, devils advocate time.

1) Entitlements, or whatever else they may call it.  Does it really matter? You recognize it for what it's for.  The name doesn't really matter

2) So they use good ideas that other companies came up with.  That's a bad thing...why?  Being able to integrate features other people have with your own is how good ongoing product development is handled, is it not?  Or should all apple ipod products be pulled form the market?
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« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2006, 05:13:58 AM »

Quote from: "Big Jake"
Ok, devils advocate time.

1) Entitlements, or whatever else they may call it.  Does it really matter? You recognize it for what it's for.  The name doesn't really matter

The name does matter, especially if it sounds really dumb. Remember when Nintendo announced the Wii? Although, that's not that good of an example as people generally have warmed up to the name, but you get my point.
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« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2006, 06:40:27 AM »

Quote from: "Big Jake"
Ok, devils advocate time.

2) So they use good ideas that other companies came up with.  That's a bad thing...why?  Being able to integrate features other people have with your own is how good ongoing product development is handled, is it not?  Or should all apple ipod products be pulled form the market?



its not that though,its that sony does it more than the others,i mean wasnt it nintendo first with the analogue and rumble pack......now both microsoft and sony have it,,..........but sony have also rumoured to have something else of nintendos(forgot what it was,LOL),friends list of microsoft,and now this...the only thing sonys new machine has for itself as far as i can see is the blu-ray...and yeah the old joke that they nicked the design of the ps3 from a george foreman grill prototype

as for this post,please take into account that i am a nintendo and xbox fanboy,LOL
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« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2006, 06:43:54 AM »

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The name does matter, especially if it sounds really dumb. Remember when Nintendo announced the Wii? Although, that's not that good of an example as people generally have warmed up to the name


Hell I still don't see myself walking into the store and saying "I'll take a Wii!" The revolution sounded so much better, and almost like Nintendo was embracing the older generations.. but then came the "Wiiiiii!"
I'm not going to judge the system by it's name, but I'll be damned that as a full grown man I'm going to go into best buy and tell the cute girl working in electronics that I want a Wii.
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« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2006, 06:58:52 AM »

"So they use good ideas that other companies came up with. That's a bad thing...why?"
I was just poking fun at Sony's silly comments about their motion sensor controller not being inspired by the Wii controller and companies in general not wanting to admit they borrowed other people's ideas.  I don't think it's a bad thing at all.  If someone comes up with a good idea, it will spread to the other consoles, which is good for all of us.  I don't have a 360 yet, but I like the idea of achievements, and I'm glad Sony is using them too.  I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo does something similar.
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« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2006, 07:25:12 AM »

Why don't they just call them awards or trophies?
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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2006, 07:37:25 AM »

the wavebird....that was nintendo,and that has also spread to other consoles

i think nintendo must have some proper good staff in the controller dept.
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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2006, 12:00:38 PM »

Entitlements? Achievements?  I dunno I think the whole thing's stupid.
Besides didn't Sony come up with the whole 'Greatest Hits' thing??  And what does Xbox have now? Basically the exact same thing with a cheesey different name.  Let the companies copy each other-good ideas are good ideas (even if you happen to think they're stupid ideas)
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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2006, 01:47:52 PM »

Ok, I'm done playing devil's advocate now.

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Why don't they just call them awards or trophies?


Ding ding ding! We have a winner.  It is simple enough, I can't understand why they didn't think of it.

Quote
good ideas are good ideas (even if you happen to think they're stupid ideas)


Amen!  I didn't say it in my previous post, but I absolutely *HATE* the idea of 'achievements'.  It focuses on the single worst part of gaming, the 'slap your dick out to see who is the biggest' concept that appeals to 15 yo boys.  I want to play games because they are fun, not because I want to say, "see! I got 52 medals/awards/achievements/entitlements/whatever to your 51! I am more 1337 than juo!"

I guess Sony copied the good ideas MS had (HD, Live) and is deciding to copy the idiotic ones too. :?
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« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2006, 04:25:59 PM »

Quote from: "Big Jake"
Ok, I'm done playing devil's advocate now.

Quote
Why don't they just call them awards or trophies?


Ding ding ding! We have a winner.  It is simple enough, I can't understand why they didn't think of it.

Quote
good ideas are good ideas (even if you happen to think they're stupid ideas)


Amen!  I didn't say it in my previous post, but I absolutely *HATE* the idea of 'achievements'.  It focuses on the single worst part of gaming, the 'slap your dick out to see who is the biggest' concept that appeals to 15 yo boys.  I want to play games because they are fun, not because I want to say, "see! I got 52 medals/awards/achievements/entitlements/whatever to your 51! I am more 1337 than juo!"

I guess Sony copied the good ideas MS had (HD, Live) and is deciding to copy the idiotic ones too. :?


Achievements have nothing to do with my e-peen or my age.  I am 28, and I like achievements.  They give me a sense of accomplishment.  It gives me goals to strive for, instead of just beating the game, it allows me to focus my efforts into mastering certain aspects of the game.
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2006, 05:14:52 PM »

I have to place myself in the couldn't care less camp.  Some people love them, and that's cool.  Others don't, and that's cool too.  Hell, if I looked probably half of the points I have on XBL are from games I just rented anyways as I didn't think they warranted a actual purchase.
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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2006, 05:21:00 PM »

Yeah, I really couldn't give a flying hoot myself, either. Which begs to question why I'm reading the thread. Or even typing this reply here.

In fact, why am I here to begin with?

Who... who am I?
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2006, 05:51:17 PM »

Quote from: "Fellow"
Yeah, I really couldn't give a flying hoot myself, either. Which begs to question why I'm reading the thread. Or even typing this reply here.

In fact, why am I here to begin with?

Who... who am I?


Hehe, this is off topic, but I just noticed that you hit your 666th post while being located in "Hell, or something like it".  Seems fitting.   smile
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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2006, 08:30:19 PM »

Quote from: "EddieA"
I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo does something similar.


They might, we just let them a few more consoles under their belts before they catch up.  I understand the Wii will actually have some kind of internet access!  Unlike the GameCube they are rumored to be using it this time around.  I suspect they will add HD next time and sooner or later will throw us a few Nwards.  Hell, they still haven't given us an EyeToy.  Even Microsoft has an EyeToy coming.

Yeah, I went there. :wink:
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2006, 09:29:31 PM »

There is a hidden benefit to Achievementmedaltrophyaccoutrementrewardentitlements though - a company can say "Wow...that seems like a shallow review.  Oh, I see the reviewer has only clocked 1.5 hours of playtime with the game.  Yea, scratch their name off the list".   Makes people a little less likely to review early.
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2006, 10:37:43 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
There is a hidden benefit to Achievementmedaltrophyaccoutrementrewardentitlements though - a company can say "Wow...that seems like a shallow review.  Oh, I see the reviewer has only clocked 1.5 hours of playtime with the game.  Yea, scratch their name off the list".   Makes people a little less likely to review early.

Good point.

I wonder how many achievements the first reviewers got when they reviewed Chromehounds? I'm guessing none. Or if they did get some, it wasn't any of the online ones.
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2006, 10:38:00 PM »

Like was posted earlier, I was the achievements to set goals for myself.  Using GRAW as an example, I haven't played chapter 2 nearly as much because all you do is beat it.  I like to get points or something.  It gives you a reason to play and a reason to do well.  I agree that the whole points thing is stupid because in reality they are useless.  I wish that you could use achievement points to get DLC from Live.  Now there is an idea.  Actually make the rewards worth people's time and not just useless numbers.
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« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2006, 12:28:33 AM »

Motion sensor controllers, acheivemen, err, entitlements.  I suppose next they will announce the PS3 will come with 2 screens and a stylus.
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« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2006, 12:40:34 AM »

Quote from: "Dimmona"
Motion sensor controllers, acheivemen, err, entitlements.  I suppose next they will announce the PS3 will come with 2 screens and a stylus.

And then they'll announce they did it first. biggrin
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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2006, 01:11:42 AM »

Quote
Amen! I didn't say it in my previous post, but I absolutely *HATE* the idea of 'achievements'. It focuses on the single worst part of gaming, the 'slap your dick out to see who is the biggest' concept that appeals to 15 yo boys. I want to play games because they are fun, not because I want to say, "see! I got 52 medals/awards/achievements/entitlements/whatever to your 51! I am more 1337 than juo!"


I must make a statement in defence of the achievements idea. It is best thing for gamers since Live. It pushes me to continue on with the game just to get those points, even if the game sucks ass. It has taken gaming to a new level for gamers and developers. exp. King Kong I would not have paid 60 bucks for that game, but it was an easy 1000 points gamefly it and was done in 2 days. typically would not have even wasted time with it.  Fight Night. all other versions in the series got the belt and it was done.
this time I played many title defences until I got that last 100 points.
blazing Angles. WTF. This is where achievements sucks. Developers making them freaking impossible to get. I still pushed on to at least get the completed game points, only 25. stupid.  but all in all it has enhanced the competitiveness of gaming both on and off line. If I fall way behind my friends list I will be gameflying lots of sports games for the easy bump in pts. even soccer.

I guess I like having a big dick.  biggrin

I must add out of fairness, I really had no drive with tomb raider so I got at least one achievement to show I played the game and it was off the the mail box.
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« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2006, 01:37:20 AM »

I like achievements, but the thing I really like (and nobody ever mentions) is the ability to sort online leaderboards and show only people on your friends list.  Live Arcade games have this feature and others, like Amped 3, have it as well.  Very cool.  I was all about trying to best Purge's scores in Amped 3 even if he didn't know it!

But I agree with the others.  Achievements have spurred me on to try and do things I would normally not try.  Take Amped 3 for example (it gets no love!).  I already beat the game.  In doing so you don't need to medal in every event.  But I wanted the "Lesser Snow God" achievement so I made sure to get a medal in every one.  I simply don't have the skill (or patience) to obtain all golds and thus earn the title "Supreme Snow God."

Live Dan said, the only reason I've not stopped playing FNR3 is to try and score a couple more achievements.

At the end of the day they don't mean much.  I don't even have 3000 points.  But I feel like I've really earned them and for some reason I like having them.

Some achievements are truly impossible.  A couple in Outpost Kaloki X are impossible due to unpatched bugs.
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« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2006, 06:33:14 PM »

I am doing my best to contain my anger here.

Quote
I like achievements. They give me a sense of accomplishment.


Quote
It is best thing for gamers since Live. It pushes me to continue on with the game just to get those points


Congrats.  You two are killing gaming.

If I want a sense of accomplishment, I will do something worth being an accomplishment, like volunteering for a charitable cause.  Sitting on my ass playing a game is NOT AN ACCOMPLISHMENT!!!!! Gaming is supposed to be fun, but thanks to testosterone, it's becoming less fun in order so you can say, 'look how leet i am' (aka, 'having a sense of accomplishment').

And juniordan I REALLY congratulate you on being conditioned well by the corporate enviornment.  They tell you to 'jump, fool!' and there you are doing it.  ME, I actually play games to, *gasp*, have fun(what a fucking concept!), and when it stops being fun, it's time to move on to doing something fun.

Yeah, I'm a crazy bastard.  I played games because I had fun.  Clearly, 'fun' is now an outmoded concept thanks to a bunch of young boys who need to thump their chests.
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I never bother getting that idiot crest in FFX that required you to dodge 200 lightining strikes either.  I specifically remember thinking, how stupid are japanese kids that they find that fun?
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« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2006, 06:36:27 PM »

Oh, and Ron, good point the acheivements as a reviewer judegment tool, ie finding just how much did they try to experience the game.  On that point, I can see some definite good behind achievements as a feedback tool for developers.
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« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2006, 06:52:40 PM »

Why all the hate?  If achievements are fun for some people and not for you, then so be it.  I think it's an interesting way to allow players to track their progress in a game.  Achievements can always be ignored.  I certainly don't think that many developers are designing their games around the achievement systems made by MS and Sony.
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« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2006, 07:10:14 PM »

I'm really hoping for a 360/PS3 version of Progress Quest that includes achieventitlements...
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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2006, 11:06:55 PM »

Yeah, Clay, I was being a bit of an asshole there.  The reason for the hate, and the reason it sets me off so, is that once one game has those, then every  other game maker will be compelled to do the same or be perceived as 'leaving soemthing out'.  So now every game maker is putting in pure crap filler to feed the stupid desire to get 'ments.  Progress Quest is indeed on it's way for one of these systems.

[Aside (uninteresting psychological inlook at Big Jake) - Me, whenever I see anything (like Steam, for instance), I don't look at it, but rather at what it will lead to.  Sure enough, All things lead downhill, so I always end up with piles of hate because everything starts off fresh, and then goes to suck when the desires of the masses, which are always of the lowest common denominator, drag it down.]
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« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2006, 11:24:48 PM »

"So now every game maker is putting in pure crap filler to feed the stupid desire to get 'ments."
Just because you don't like it, that makes it a "stupid desire"?  I like the concept of achievements (and in a similar vein, unlocking things in games).  I like the sense of progression.  I couldn't care less about how I compare to other people, I just want to see for myself.  For me, it adds to the fun.  If that puts me in the camp of unwashed masses who like such things, so be it.
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« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2006, 11:30:56 PM »

I like some of the silly achievements that are going into Crackdown.  Highest fall over xyz feet resulting in death?  I'm there.  smile
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« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2006, 02:32:07 AM »

Quote from: "Big Jake"
I am doing my best to contain my anger here.

Quote
I like achievements. They give me a sense of accomplishment.


Quote
It is best thing for gamers since Live. It pushes me to continue on with the game just to get those points


Congrats.  You two are killing gaming.

If I want a sense of accomplishment, I will do something worth being an accomplishment, like volunteering for a charitable cause.  Sitting on my ass playing a game is NOT AN ACCOMPLISHMENT!!!!! Gaming is supposed to be fun, but thanks to testosterone, it's becoming less fun in order so you can say, 'look how leet i am' (aka, 'having a sense of accomplishment').

And juniordan I REALLY congratulate you on being conditioned well by the corporate enviornment.  They tell you to 'jump, fool!' and there you are doing it.  ME, I actually play games to, *gasp*, have fun(what a fucking concept!), and when it stops being fun, it's time to move on to doing something fun.

Yeah, I'm a crazy bastard.  I played games because I had fun.  Clearly, 'fun' is now an outmoded concept thanks to a bunch of young boys who need to thump their chests.
----------------------------
I never bother getting that idiot crest in FFX that required you to dodge 200 lightining strikes either.  I specifically remember thinking, how stupid are japanese kids that they find that fun?


So what I find fun is killing gaming, but what you find fun is making it more fun, interesting.  Glad you know what is best for me.

 :roll:
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« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2006, 03:35:54 AM »

Quote from: "Turtle"
Why don't they just call them awards or trophies?


They need to call it with some lesser used name so that it won't confuse the players with in-game stuffs.

It is more likely for games to have in-game stuffs called awards or trophies, but it is unlikely for games to call it Entitlement.
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« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2006, 04:12:24 AM »

I have to say that 'entitlement' makes me think of several things, none of them good.  First of all is the idea of 'white entitlement' that was (and still is) pervasive before the success of the civil rights movement.  Secondly are government handouts - things that are constitutionally mandated.  For instance, healthcare is an entitlement in Mexico because the constitution promises it to the citizens.  Finally, it reminds me of something unfun and domestic, like selling a car or something.  I think the choice of name is awful.
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« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2006, 04:43:58 AM »

Maybe a better and simpler name is to call it Playstation points.
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« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2006, 05:11:53 AM »

You never know with these Japs. I am still waiting for the them to Change the name of the system to Sony's ME.  :lol:  sorry I couldn't help it.
My point is, there is still time for someone to bring and up dated  English dictionary to the table.  :wink:
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« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2006, 05:33:57 AM »

Quote
And juniordan I REALLY congratulate you on being conditioned well by the corporate enviornment. They tell you to 'jump, fool!' and there you are doing it. ME, I actually play games to, *gasp*, have fun(what a fucking concept!), and when it stops being fun, it's time to move on to doing something fun.


conditioned well by the corporate environment. Is a bit of an over statement I was up and gaming well thru the age of the Arcades.  Getting your 3 letters up to the top, or even in the top ten was just as fun as playing the games.
Look at pin ball machines, hell it was all about the high score. your going  tell me you would knock that ball around just for the hell of it because it is fun?
If you in my age bracket or older I know you know what I am talking about. Live is the modern day Arcade that brings the old school style of gaming back to life.

30+ read on.

Hey.... remember those LCD hand helds  :wink:  :wink:  
so you move the trampoline left and right for hours on in catching people falling out of the burning building. What you keep playing cause it was fun? or to take down your last high score? You know when you tilted that bugger 99999999 you had to tell all you friends.
I think by now you get my drift. Cool
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Dreamshadow
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« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2006, 03:04:18 PM »

I'm surprised no one mentioned the possibility of....wiiwards?
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Tom "Dreamshadow" Tjarks
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Big Jake
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« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2006, 05:58:21 PM »

Quote
30+ read on.

Hey.... remember those LCD hand helds  
so you move the trampoline left and right for hours on in catching people falling out of the burning building. What you keep playing cause it was fun? or to take down your last high score? You know when you tilted that bugger 99999999 you had to tell all you friends.
I think by now you get my drift.


I knew someone would fall for that trap.

So tell me, how many of those games are highly touted for the DS? Most of the DS titles I hear big news about revolve around the experience of the game (Ace Wright, Trauma Center, etc.)  Yes, I played plenty of space invaders back when I was a kid.  That was because the limitations of the hardware.  That limitation of the hardware is no longer there, so there is no excuse for using that crappy crutch for gameplay.

Quote
So what I find fun is killing gaming, but what you find fun is making it more fun, interesting. Glad you know what is best for me.


You'd have a point there except for one thing: I never said what was 'fun'.  I said the focus *should be* fun (whatever type of fun it is).  Achievements take the focus off of fun, and place it on testosterone fueled 'accomplishment'.  And please, tell me again why someone should have a sense of accomplishment over sitting on their ass playing a video game?
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