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Author Topic: [DRM] Red Alert 3's DRM crapola revealed  (Read 3733 times)
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Destructor
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« on: September 10, 2008, 02:04:08 PM »

And once again the pirates win:

Quote
- We will authenticate your game online when you install and launch it the first time.

- We will never re-authenticate an installation online after the first launch. In other words, no reaching out to a central server post-install to see if you’re “allowed” to play.

- You will be able to install and play on up to five computers (installations).

- This system means you don't have to play with the disc in your computer.

Which means, much like Spore (and Bioshock before it), you're considered a 'thief' the moment you purchase this game. I'm really sick and tired of this DRM bullshit. I really am.
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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2008, 02:55:45 PM »

I wonder what would happen if someone were to bring this up with a Norwegian court? The consumer almost always wins over here when companies try to be creative with their money-making schemes. Hmmm, I think I'll contact someone who works with this kind of stuff.
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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2008, 03:19:54 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on September 10, 2008, 02:04:08 PM

And once again the pirates win:

Which means, much like Spore (and Bioshock before it), you're considered a 'thief' the moment you purchase this game. I'm really sick and tired of this DRM bullshit. I really am.

The rest of the linked post seems particularly relevant to the discussion:

Quote
- This system means you don't have to play with the disc in your computer. Personally, I think this is a huge improvement over our previous copy protection requirements, which have always required a disk to play.

- Life happens. I know it’s unlikely, but for those unlucky few who install the game and have their machines nuked (virus, OS reinstall, major hardware upgrade, etc.) five times, EA Customer Service will be on hand to supply any additional authorizations that are warranted. This will be done on a case-by-case basis by contacting customer support.

-You can, of course, play offline without impediment or penalty.

Red Alert 3 is shaping up to be a world-class RTS game that will give you many hours of enjoyment. I think it would be a shame if people decided to not play a great game simply because it came with DRM, but I understand that this is a very personal decision for many of you and I respect that. As you might imagine, I’m a lot less respectful of those people who take the position that they will illegally download a game simply because it has DRM.

Either way, we’ re very proud of the hard work our team has put into this game and we hope you will all enjoy it when it launches.

Section bolded for emphasis and agreement.
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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2008, 03:23:03 PM »

They removed the limited installations on Bioshock after awhile, maybe they'll do the same thing here.
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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2008, 03:32:36 PM »

I'd much rather have the CD in the drive. Then, you wouldn't have to worry about the registration server going under, or the company vanishing, or you losing the patch that would make the game playable in say, 5 years or so. Oh, and I wouldn't have to install SecurROM, either.

I found this post elsewhere that explains my distaste for limited registrations. Shrunk down as it's long:

-----
A physical CD check entirely different than a limited count, remote server verification requirement.

It is sad how many consumers cheer as the medium is poisoned. Systems like this do nothing but promote not buying PC games.

If I buy Battlefield 2 for my 360, it doesn't load my system with unwanted background programs, that are impossible for any but the most technically knowledgeable users to completely remove. I can loan the game to a friend for as long as I wish, and suffer no ill consequences at all. If my 360 suffers a catastrophic failure, I never have to call EA to ask permission to play the game on my replacement 360.

On the Xbox, I can loan the game to a dozen friends and never ever once have to ask EA for permission. My Xbox never needs to be online, and 20 years from now I can still pull my NES and Xbox 360 out of the closet, pop in a game for nostalgia, and have it work perfectly.

I don't have to rely on DRM servers that will inevitably be taken offline. I don't even have to save a patch that removes the DRM, or pray Ensemble Studios website is still online hosting said patch.

You DRM apologist have no ground to stand on. Of course publishers and developers want to make money. That should not entail making legitimate customers jump through hoops.

-----

I'm sick and tired of being treated like a pirate, that's all.
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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2008, 03:43:06 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on September 10, 2008, 03:32:36 PM


I'd much rather have the CD in the drive. Then, you wouldn't have to worry about the registration server going under, or the company vanishing, or you losing the patch that would make the game playable in say, 5 years or so. Oh, and I wouldn't have to install SecurROM, either.


While this particular DRM scheme doesn't annoy me personally, I am glad that others who are bothered by it push back.  I have no doubt that things would steadily get more and more restrictive otherwise.
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2008, 04:32:23 PM »

I was planning on buying Spore until I heard about the DRM being used and decided I will just keep my money for something on the Wii or DS instead. RA3 is a no go now as well, although it might not have run on my PC anyway most likely. I'm surprised companies can get away with this considering we are supposed to live in a society where you are innocent until proven guilty, but with this DRM I am a pirate right off the bat.

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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2008, 04:37:40 PM »

Spore is probably the last game I buy with this kind of shit on it.  I mean, what's the point?  Spore was cracked on day one, so what did EA gain?  I, too, am tired of being treated like a criminal and having to pay to effectively rent a game.
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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2008, 01:43:26 AM »

i also passed on Spore and Bioshock due to the DRM, as well as Valve's newer Steam-only stuff - despite my wanting to play these games.

i have purchased indie games online with activation in the past, but those titles were also much under $20.
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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2008, 02:14:31 AM »

I honestly dont see any problems with this type of copy protection being used, people whined about having to have the disk in the drive as a form of copy protection, fine you are then given something that allows you to not have the disk in the drive and still play, and you whine about that.    I guess the only thing that wont be whined about is zero copy protection at all.   But then we wont have nearly as many games to play as the lost sales will push more companies over to console games only.
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« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2008, 02:44:04 AM »

Quote from: brettmcd on September 11, 2008, 02:14:31 AM

I guess the only thing that wont be whined about is zero copy protection at all.   But then we wont have nearly as many games to play as the lost sales will push more companies over to console games only.

See: Stardock. Zero copy protection. A way to register your game (and CD key) with their online service so you can redownload the game for no cost if you lose your original CD. They produce constant updates to show that they care for their players. Oh, and if I remember right, they broke 500k in sales in Sins of a Solar Empire recently.
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« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2008, 03:23:30 AM »

You realize that EA would consider Spore, ME, or Red Alert a horrific failure at 500k sales, particularly if it took this long to get there? Also, somehow I don't think that the development dollars that went into GalCiv2 or Sins even approach the development dollars that went into EA's games.

The other thing is that we talk about pirates getting a DRM free copy, but many times they get an online free copy too (they can't play online), and at least Spore and I'm sure Red Alert have online capabilities that most players won't want to do without.
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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2008, 03:50:50 AM »

Doesn't bug me at all. Two three years down the line I have no problem with calling and asking them to reset my installs. When they are no longer making much, if any money on the game anymore I doubt they will put up much of a fight. Not to mention a few years down the road it will probably be more of an issue of getting the game to run on the newest OS more than anything else.

Even with Vista I have had issues with my install. It's a pain in the ass, but MS gave me a new code to validate my install.

I can live with it.
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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2008, 03:56:33 AM »

I'm not sure if this is true, but if you follow some of the posts by the devs in the original link, they say that the used activation is released once you uninstall the game with an active internet connection, as opposed to something like Mass Effect where you only get three activations ever.

If this is turns out to be the case, then it's not too big of a deal.  However, it sucks to have to consider how restrictive the DRM will be when considering purchasing a new game.  I'm one of those people who keep games forever and play it again years later when I get a better computer.  What happens if the activation servers are gone?

It's funny how the devs are saying how they are being "lenient" on the DRM restrictions as if they're doing us a favour or something.

Personally, I liked the old input the CD-key and disk check copy protection system.
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2008, 04:02:53 AM »

Quote from: lex on September 11, 2008, 03:56:33 AM

I'm not sure if this is true, but if you follow some of the posts by the devs in the original link, they say that the used activation is released once you uninstall the game with an active internet connection, as opposed to something like Mass Effect where you only get three activations ever.

It's not "ever". Its you call and ask them to reset it once you surpass the 5 installs. All they are doing is making sure you aren't going out and doing 10 installs in a 6 month period. By the time EA goes out of business and their servers disappear you won't be able to play the game on whatever OS is current anyway. Plus I would think they would remove the limit once the game is past its prime (like OOTP does I believe).
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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2008, 01:53:04 PM »

Quote from: Lee on September 11, 2008, 03:50:50 AM

Doesn't bug me at all. Two three years down the line I have no problem with calling and asking them to reset my installs.

Glad you don't mind taking the time 2 years from now to find the correct number, sit on hold for god knows how long, try to interpret whatever foreign accent the outsourced support person uses into English, then calling back 10 minutes later when they inevitably screw it up.

But hey, I do the same thing for my T.V., my sofa, any dvd's I purchase....


...wait...no I don't.

 Tongue

is this a deal breaker for me?  probably not.  It is, however, annoying and I won't pretend that it doesn't bother me somewhat.  Especially after the 10 minutes it took me to purchase Star Rangers 2 Complete off Impulse this past weekend, secure in the knowledge that I actually own it from this point forward without having to jump through any hoops if I decide I want to install it on more than 3 computers in the next 2 years (not an uncommon incident for most folks around these parts).
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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2008, 02:19:48 PM »

Quote from: Lorini on September 11, 2008, 03:23:30 AM

The other thing is that we talk about pirates getting a DRM free copy, but many times they get an online free copy too (they can't play online), and at least Spore and I'm sure Red Alert have online capabilities that most players won't want to do without.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to get a pirated copy online. Yeah, you can't connect to the dev's main server browser, but just about every game out there that has co-op or competitive play offers LAN play. And that generally never touches anything that checks to see if you have a valid CD key. And LAN play can be easily tunneled to another IP address anywhere in the world with other programs.

Heck - I've even heard of pirate groups hosting their own server browsers before. It's pretty impressive what pirate groups do nowadays.
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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2008, 02:27:14 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on September 11, 2008, 02:19:48 PM

Quote from: Lorini on September 11, 2008, 03:23:30 AM

The other thing is that we talk about pirates getting a DRM free copy, but many times they get an online free copy too (they can't play online), and at least Spore and I'm sure Red Alert have online capabilities that most players won't want to do without.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to get a pirated copy online. Yeah, you can't connect to the dev's main server browser, but just about every game out there that has co-op or competitive play offers LAN play. And that generally never touches anything that checks to see if you have a valid CD key. And LAN play can be easily tunneled to another IP address anywhere in the world with other programs.

Heck - I've even heard of pirate groups hosting their own server browsers before. It's pretty impressive what pirate groups do nowadays.

Impressive?   I can think of a lot of words and terms I would use to describe pirates and their dispicable activities, but impressive wouldnt be one of them.
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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2008, 03:43:18 PM »

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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2008, 08:46:35 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on September 11, 2008, 02:27:14 PM

Quote from: Destructor on September 11, 2008, 02:19:48 PM

Quote from: Lorini on September 11, 2008, 03:23:30 AM

The other thing is that we talk about pirates getting a DRM free copy, but many times they get an online free copy too (they can't play online), and at least Spore and I'm sure Red Alert have online capabilities that most players won't want to do without.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to get a pirated copy online. Yeah, you can't connect to the dev's main server browser, but just about every game out there that has co-op or competitive play offers LAN play. And that generally never touches anything that checks to see if you have a valid CD key. And LAN play can be easily tunneled to another IP address anywhere in the world with other programs.

Heck - I've even heard of pirate groups hosting their own server browsers before. It's pretty impressive what pirate groups do nowadays.

Impressive?   I can think of a lot of words and terms I would use to describe pirates and their dispicable activities, but impressive wouldnt be one of them.

Recognizing somebody's ingenuity doesn't preclude them from being a douche. smile  What is unfortunate is that the more draconian the companies get with their anti-piracy toys, the more likely it is to hurt legitimate consumers.
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« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2008, 08:49:01 PM »

I think Sacred 2 takes the cake.

Not only is it using the same DRM, modified (unlimited re-installs, 2 activations but only one can be online at a time), but .... you're not purchasing the game, you're purchasing a license for use.  Thus, your license is not transferrable.
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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2008, 09:26:36 PM »

Yar.
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« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2008, 10:31:35 PM »

Quote from: Zarkon on September 11, 2008, 08:49:01 PM

I think Sacred 2 takes the cake.

Not only is it using the same DRM, modified (unlimited re-installs, 2 activations but only one can be online at a time), but .... you're not purchasing the game, you're purchasing a license for use.  Thus, your license is not transferrable.

the year of disappoints continues!! 2008 will go down in infamy as the potential great year ruined by horrible gameplay and DRM issues. thank you devs making me save money 50 bucks at a time! so far able to save 200 bucks from horrible games and DRM.

so basically pc gaming is going to be either steam or impulse for me. outside of those and i won't buy it, at least that's the publishers are forcing me to do. won't put up with DRM no matter the game. there are new games coming out all the time and I won't miss 1 little game here and there. Tough shit for them.
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2008, 10:44:37 PM »

Just off the top of my head, I can easily think of a dozen games in my collection that I've reinstalled way more than three times.  Why the fuck should I ask the publisher's permission to do so?  And risk not being able to, thus leaving me with a £30 coaster?  I bought it, it's MINE.  It doesn't surprise me that people are turning to piracy.

This is why I'm very happy to support publishers like Stardock.  I will continue to buy their games because they don't assume I'm a criminal.
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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2008, 11:09:31 PM »

Quote from: Zarkon on September 11, 2008, 08:49:01 PM

I think Sacred 2 takes the cake.

Not only is it using the same DRM, modified (unlimited re-installs, 2 activations but only one can be online at a time), but .... you're not purchasing the game, you're purchasing a license for use.  Thus, your license is not transferrable.
This just ensures I pick Sacred 2 up for the 360 rather than the PC.
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« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2008, 01:43:03 PM »

Quote from: Dreamshadow on September 11, 2008, 11:09:31 PM

Quote from: Zarkon on September 11, 2008, 08:49:01 PM

I think Sacred 2 takes the cake.

Not only is it using the same DRM, modified (unlimited re-installs, 2 activations but only one can be online at a time), but .... you're not purchasing the game, you're purchasing a license for use.  Thus, your license is not transferrable.
This just ensures I pick Sacred 2 up for the 360 rather than the PC.

+1

I was going PC until I read that.
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« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2008, 02:06:14 PM »

This surely is one less buy for me after all the crap i had to go through to get spore working until deciding to crack it... Guess what ? THAT WORKED while the legal version didnt.
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« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2008, 02:19:02 PM »

Im always going to be of the opinion if you dont like the legal methods a company takes to secure its own products then DONT BUY THEM.   Its pretty simple as you arent forced to buy these games.   Much more logical to do that then go to piracy, cracks and other such bs.
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« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2008, 02:27:51 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on September 12, 2008, 02:19:02 PM

Im always going to be of the opinion if you dont like the legal methods a company takes to secure its own products then DONT BUY THEM.   Its pretty simple as you arent forced to buy these games.   Much more logical to do that then go to piracy, cracks and other such bs.

not really more "logical" so much as more "legal".   icon_wink
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« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2008, 04:46:48 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on September 12, 2008, 02:19:02 PM

Im always going to be of the opinion if you dont like the legal methods a company takes to secure its own products then DONT BUY THEM.

And I'm always going to be of the opinion that if I've bought a game, I should have the right to use it wherever, whenever and as often as I like.
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« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2008, 05:37:29 PM »

Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 12, 2008, 04:46:48 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on September 12, 2008, 02:19:02 PM

Im always going to be of the opinion if you dont like the legal methods a company takes to secure its own products then DONT BUY THEM.

And I'm always going to be of the opinion that if I've bought a game, I should have the right to use it wherever, whenever and as often as I like.

although I must request that you stop posting pictures of yourself "al fresco" while playing these games, with the caption "Casual Friday at the Huw House.".
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« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2008, 06:51:43 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on September 12, 2008, 05:37:29 PM

although I must request that you stop posting pictures of your self "al fresco" while playing these games, with the caption "Casual Friday at the Huw House.".

icon_lol
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« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2008, 09:53:14 PM »

Quote from: Lorini on September 11, 2008, 03:23:30 AM


The other thing is that we talk about pirates getting a DRM free copy, but many times they get an online free copy too (they can't play online), and at least Spore and I'm sure Red Alert have online capabilities that most players won't want to do without.

Still isn't that the silly thing though? Of all games that have come out, they need DRM the least!!  Who is going to want to play Spore without being able to download user-created content?  And who is going to want to play RA3 in a room by themselves when the real meat of the game is online against their buddies or trying to improve their ranking against random people?
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« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2008, 01:14:49 AM »

Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 12, 2008, 04:46:48 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on September 12, 2008, 02:19:02 PM

Im always going to be of the opinion if you dont like the legal methods a company takes to secure its own products then DONT BUY THEM.

And I'm always going to be of the opinion that if I've bought a game, I should have the right to use it wherever, whenever and as often as I like.

Well you should have a talk then with that person who forced you at gunpoint or something to buy a game that you cant stand how the company decided to make it.   
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« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2008, 01:22:31 AM »

WTF?!  Who said I bought it?  Who said I bought it under duress?  Aren't we talking about a game that hasn't even been released yet?

All the above (in which I have already pwned you) notwithstanding, yes, I will send them an email.  Do you think they'll listen?
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« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2008, 02:47:45 AM »

I'm of the mind that if I don't like the DRM a company uses, I won't buy the software.

I will however, bitch CONSTANTLY about it.
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« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2008, 10:32:17 PM »

Interesting - apparently EA is getting the hint about their crapola DRM stuff:

Quote
"The heavy Amazon.com protest of Spore's DRM appears to have caught the attention of executives at EA. IGN reports that DRM for the upcoming C&C: Red Alert 3 will be scaled back. Unlike previous Command and Conquer games, the CD will not be required in the drive to play. The online authentication will be done just once (rather than periodic phone calls home), and up to five installations will be allowed, as opposed to three for Spore.

I still prefer the CD-check thing (which can be easily cracked) along with a CD-key. That worked well enough in the past. Let's just keep with that instead, especially with any game that can go online.
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« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2008, 10:43:52 PM »

They missed the point, really, didn't they?  Or they just don't give a shit.
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« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2008, 02:17:34 PM »

Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 14, 2008, 10:43:52 PM

They missed the point, really, didn't they?  Or they just don't give a shit.

Or maybe they just want to protect their product and dont really care what a lot of people who just want to get it for free think anyway.
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« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2008, 02:44:21 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on September 15, 2008, 02:17:34 PM

Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 14, 2008, 10:43:52 PM

They missed the point, really, didn't they?  Or they just don't give a shit.
Or maybe they just want to protect their product and dont really care what a lot of people who just want to get it for free think anyway.

But that's the entire point - the pirates WILL get it for free no matter what they do. And the pirates will NEVER have to deal with the DRM crapfest, will NEVER have to deal with keeping a disc in the drive, etc, etc.

There is absolutely NO point putting any kind of protection on a product short of a CD-key (for if you want to play online). The pirating community will defeat it Day 1, Day 2 at the latest.
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