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Author Topic: [Console debate] Which console do you WANT to "win" and why?  (Read 5934 times)
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« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2007, 01:13:23 AM »

'cus Sony and Nintendo are just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, right?
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« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2007, 01:20:53 AM »

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on November 06, 2007, 12:44:54 AM

Yeah, but how they go about implementing those goals is what differentiates the companies. Nintendo's vision is bringing families together in the living room. Microsoft's vision of new experiences is by bringing people together through Xbox Live Marketplace... and charging people for those experiences. 

Please.  Roll Eyes

Don't fool yourself into thinking that Nintendo isn't all about making a profit.  They went the way they did this generation because they had to or they would have been out of the home console business.  They are the only console manufacturer that does not sell hardware below cost.  They are sell us ~$200 of hardware at a cost of $249 while Microsoft and Sony are selling hardware at a loss. 

Just because they make kiddie games on kiddie hardware don't believe they aren't out to make every penny.  As they should be.
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« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2007, 01:35:21 AM »

Quote from: denoginizer on November 06, 2007, 01:20:53 AM

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on November 06, 2007, 12:44:54 AM

Yeah, but how they go about implementing those goals is what differentiates the companies. Nintendo's vision is bringing families together in the living room. Microsoft's vision of new experiences is by bringing people together through Xbox Live Marketplace... and charging people for those experiences. 

Please.  Roll Eyes

Don't fool yourself into thinking that Nintendo isn't all about making a profit.  They went the way they did this generation because they had to or they would have been out of the home console business.  They are the only console manufacturer that does not sell hardware below cost.  They are sell us ~$200 of hardware at a cost of $249 while Microsoft and Sony are selling hardware at a loss. 

Just because they make kiddie games on kiddie hardware don't believe they aren't out to make every penny.  As they should be.

Don't oversimplify my argument. Obviously, all the console makers are out to make a profit. Microsoft is the only one attempting to add fees every time you turn around and also sell my eyeballs to te highest bidder.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 01:39:31 AM by Andrew Mallon » Logged
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« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2007, 01:55:27 AM »

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on November 06, 2007, 01:35:21 AM

Quote from: denoginizer on November 06, 2007, 01:20:53 AM

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on November 06, 2007, 12:44:54 AM

Yeah, but how they go about implementing those goals is what differentiates the companies. Nintendo's vision is bringing families together in the living room. Microsoft's vision of new experiences is by bringing people together through Xbox Live Marketplace... and charging people for those experiences. 

Please.  Roll Eyes

Don't fool yourself into thinking that Nintendo isn't all about making a profit.  They went the way they did this generation because they had to or they would have been out of the home console business.  They are the only console manufacturer that does not sell hardware below cost.  They are sell us ~$200 of hardware at a cost of $249 while Microsoft and Sony are selling hardware at a loss. 

Just because they make kiddie games on kiddie hardware don't believe they aren't out to make every penny.  As they should be.

Don't oversimplify my argument. Obviously, all the console makers are out to make a profit. Microsoft is the only one attempting to add fees every time you turn around and also sell my eyeballs to te highest bidder.

Should Apple give their music away? I mean, Microsoft is offering more content than anyone else and a MUCH better service, which is entirely optional. If folks don't want to pay the money for content or the ability to use the services, then they don't have to.

Considering how much EVERYTHING in gaming costs, I don't really have too much of a problem with Microsoft charging a few bucks here and there if it's going to result in a higher quality service than what everyone else offered.
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« Reply #84 on: November 06, 2007, 02:23:16 AM »

I don't feel like MS is trying to nickle and dime us through Marketplace, the only reason most people are even putting their shit up on the service is to make money, including the artists who create gamer pics and whatnot. If MS didn't enforce some sort of price standard, the market would fall through and we would basically have a free market full of crappy content. I'm willing to pay for quality content, personally.
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« Reply #85 on: November 06, 2007, 05:17:55 AM »

Also, after learning that CoD4's campaign is apparently very short short (5 hours!?!), another trend that comes to mind which you can find commonly in 360 games is a gimped SP and heavy emphasis on MP.
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« Reply #86 on: November 06, 2007, 05:29:57 AM »

Quote from: Ridah on November 06, 2007, 05:17:55 AM

Also, after learning that CoD4's campaign is apparently very short short (5 hours!?!), another trend that comes to mind which you can find commonly in 360 games is a gimped SP and heavy emphasis on MP.

You realize CoD4 is on PS3 and PC as well?

gellar
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« Reply #87 on: November 06, 2007, 07:55:59 AM »

Quote from: gellar on November 06, 2007, 05:29:57 AM

Quote from: Ridah on November 06, 2007, 05:17:55 AM

Also, after learning that CoD4's campaign is apparently very short short (5 hours!?!), another trend that comes to mind which you can find commonly in 360 games is a gimped SP and heavy emphasis on MP.

You realize CoD4 is on PS3 and PC as well?

gellar

Right, but it's something common in many of the 360's games, and considering probably 75% of the game's sales will be on the 360 platform, you can see why the development team took the direction that it did.
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« Reply #88 on: November 06, 2007, 02:09:12 PM »

You don't think Christmas deadline had more to do with it than the 360?

I mean, look at Oblivion (an erstweil 360 console exclusive). I've run through the game once, haven't touched half the caves and dungeons, and I have over 150hrs logged. It(COD4)'s a shooter, and it's sold as such. CoD4s length isn't an MS push (as they neither published it, nor developed it, NOR is it a 360 console exclusive).

I don't think MS is going to developers and saying shorten your games folks, we're looking for money here. Quite the opposite, in my mind. They're encouraging developers to delve deeper to bring out "console defining games" to help the 360 grow its marketshare and become a viable japanese console alternative.

Quote from: Andrew Mallon
Don't oversimplify my argument. Obviously, all the console makers are out to make a profit. Microsoft is the only one attempting to add fees every time you turn around and also sell my eyeballs to te highest bidder.

Nintendo could be selling the Wii at cost, or less than cost (and make up for it in software sales). That's not good business. If you can't keep your product on the shelf long enough, then why change it? Other consoles have gone through price drops (due to parts availability/ cost etc) except Nintendo. "But it costs less" ... yes, and it gives you less. It's not a BD player/multimedia center... hell it can't even play DVDs even though it has a DVD drive in it! Have you TRIED using the photo channel? The functions in the Wii are very limited, aging and not a laundry list of wonderful things that either of the two other consoles bring to the table.

So to bring something like the PS3 or the 360 into that price range, they need to sell some advertising space. I actually LIKE the ads that show up as it often tells me about stuff on the marketplace I wouldn't actually bother to go and look for.

And if you think MS is so horrible for this idea of marketing, then you really didn't understand the EA vs Live contention last gen.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 03:22:21 PM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: November 06, 2007, 02:12:35 PM »

Quote from: Purge on November 06, 2007, 02:09:12 PM

Have you TRIED using the photo channel? The functions in the Wii are very limited, aging and not a laundry list of wonderful things that either of the two other consoles bring to the table.

What's wrong with the photo channel?  I've only used it a couple times, but it seemed like a pretty slick interface, better than the Windows Picture Viewer at the very least, and more elegant than software like ACDSee or whatever.
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« Reply #90 on: November 06, 2007, 02:24:14 PM »

Quote from: Ridah on November 06, 2007, 07:55:59 AM

Right, but it's something common in many of the 360's games, and considering probably 75% of the game's sales will be on the 360 platform, you can see why the development team took the direction that it did.

Are you saying that Microsoft is mandating shorter SP campaigns on 360 games?

If anyting I think Nintedo is squelching multiplayer on the Wii with that idiotic friend code system.

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« Reply #91 on: November 06, 2007, 02:45:20 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on November 06, 2007, 02:24:14 PM

If anyting I think Nintedo is squelching multiplayer on the Wii with that idiotic friend code system.

I am starting to think you don't like the Wii.
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« Reply #92 on: November 06, 2007, 02:50:07 PM »

Quote from: Lee on November 06, 2007, 02:45:20 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on November 06, 2007, 02:24:14 PM

If anyting I think Nintedo is squelching multiplayer on the Wii with that idiotic friend code system.

I am starting to think you don't like the Wii.

No, he's talking about Nintedo Sayashi, the Nintendo employee that insisted on implementing friend codes for the system.  He has very strong influence.
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« Reply #93 on: November 06, 2007, 02:53:37 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on November 06, 2007, 02:50:07 PM

Quote from: Lee on November 06, 2007, 02:45:20 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on November 06, 2007, 02:24:14 PM

If anyting I think Nintedo is squelching multiplayer on the Wii with that idiotic friend code system.

I am starting to think you don't like the Wii.

No, he's talking about Nintedo Sayashi, the Nintendo employee that insisted on implementing friend codes for the system.  He has very strong influence.

Oh yeah, he's an ass. Is he responsible for all the kiddie games too?
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« Reply #94 on: November 06, 2007, 02:55:50 PM »

Quote from: Lee on November 06, 2007, 02:53:37 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on November 06, 2007, 02:50:07 PM

Quote from: Lee on November 06, 2007, 02:45:20 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on November 06, 2007, 02:24:14 PM

If anyting I think Nintedo is squelching multiplayer on the Wii with that idiotic friend code system.

I am starting to think you don't like the Wii.

No, he's talking about Nintedo Sayashi, the Nintendo employee that insisted on implementing friend codes for the system.  He has very strong influence.

Oh yeah, he's an ass. Is he responsible for all the kiddie games too?

Probably.

In addition I think he yanked out the HD and DVD playback too.
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« Reply #95 on: November 06, 2007, 03:02:12 PM »

Quote from: Lee on November 06, 2007, 02:53:37 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on November 06, 2007, 02:50:07 PM

Quote from: Lee on November 06, 2007, 02:45:20 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on November 06, 2007, 02:24:14 PM

If anyting I think Nintedo is squelching multiplayer on the Wii with that idiotic friend code system.

I am starting to think you don't like the Wii.

No, he's talking about Nintedo Sayashi, the Nintendo employee that insisted on implementing friend codes for the system.  He has very strong influence.

Oh yeah, he's an ass. Is he responsible for all the kiddie games too?

No, that's Wii-chan "Kawaii" Watanabe.  She never quite left the Hello Kitty stage of life, but she throws one hell of a party.
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« Reply #96 on: November 06, 2007, 03:03:03 PM »

Quote from: Lee on November 06, 2007, 02:45:20 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on November 06, 2007, 02:24:14 PM

If anyting I think Nintedo is squelching multiplayer on the Wii with that idiotic friend code system.

I am starting to think you don't like the Wii.

I only keep mine so I can make fun if it.  icon_wink
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« Reply #97 on: November 06, 2007, 03:34:14 PM »

Quote from: Ridah on November 06, 2007, 07:55:59 AM

Quote from: gellar on November 06, 2007, 05:29:57 AM

Quote from: Ridah on November 06, 2007, 05:17:55 AM

Also, after learning that CoD4's campaign is apparently very short short (5 hours!?!), another trend that comes to mind which you can find commonly in 360 games is a gimped SP and heavy emphasis on MP.

You realize CoD4 is on PS3 and PC as well?

gellar

Right, but it's something common in many of the 360's games, and considering probably 75% of the game's sales will be on the 360 platform, you can see why the development team took the direction that it did.

I think that's a bit of a stretch.  Developers are realizing game length is not necessarily a factor in game sales.  Coupled that with how long it takes to properly balance a good MP game and of course it's going to take time away from the SP.

Personally, so long as the game isn't 2 hours long or something, I don't give 2 craps.

gellar
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« Reply #98 on: November 06, 2007, 03:53:19 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on November 06, 2007, 01:35:21 AM

Don't oversimplify my argument. Obviously, all the console makers are out to make a profit. Microsoft is the only one attempting to add fees every time you turn around and also sell my eyeballs to te highest bidder.
Oh, come on.  Nintendo is doing the exact same thing with their virtual console.  $10 for a 15 year old game?  At least with XBLA titles, MS mandates that they *must* have some kind of value-add to old catalog titles... online components, leaderboard, multiplayer, achievements, etc. 

It costs Nintendo *nothing* to recycle those ancient Mario games yet again - they've already made their money off those games a dozen times over, and the bandwidth required to push a 1 MB game is virtually nil - but yet you don't think *that* is "nickel and diming"?
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« Reply #99 on: November 06, 2007, 03:55:50 PM »

Bring your own!
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« Reply #100 on: November 06, 2007, 04:08:53 PM »

Quote from: Ridah on November 06, 2007, 07:55:59 AM

Quote from: gellar on November 06, 2007, 05:29:57 AM

Quote from: Ridah on November 06, 2007, 05:17:55 AM

Also, after learning that CoD4's campaign is apparently very short short (5 hours!?!), another trend that comes to mind which you can find commonly in 360 games is a gimped SP and heavy emphasis on MP.

You realize CoD4 is on PS3 and PC as well?

gellar

Right, but it's something common in many of the 360's games, and considering probably 75% of the game's sales will be on the 360 platform, you can see why the development team took the direction that it did.

the first CoD (also done by the same group) was PC only and just as short, so I don't think the 360 had much influence on how they make their games.   I hear it also had a very nice MP portion.
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« Reply #101 on: November 06, 2007, 04:22:48 PM »

Quote from: Laner on November 06, 2007, 03:53:19 PM

It costs Nintendo *nothing* to recycle those ancient Mario games yet again - they've already made their money off those games a dozen times over, and the bandwidth required to push a 1 MB game is virtually nil - but yet you don't think *that* is "nickel and diming"?

It is, but fanboys will never admit it since they put Nintendo in the same "holy" light Apple fanatics do with "their" company, while MS and other companies like EA are just big monolithic evil corporations out to screw the consumer.
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« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2007, 05:56:00 PM »

I wasn't implying that MS is mandating that developers keep the SP portion short and focusing more on MP, I'm just saying that Infinity Ward was possibly influenced by the current trends within the 360 market. If they were expecting the bulk of CoD4's sales to be on the Wii, do you think the SP campaign would be as short or possibly longer?
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« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2007, 05:59:32 PM »

Quote from: jblank on November 05, 2007, 09:50:01 PM

I didn't mean to seem hostile guys, nor did I mean to piss you off Farscry.

I wasn't pissed, and hopefully I didn't offend you. I just honestly think that there's more vitriol in the remarks you've made (rather than the "live and let live" perspective) than you seemed to realize.

Quote from: jblank
This has been a bad day, my wife has to have a D&C tomorrow due to her pregnancy failing after 6 weeks, so we've been at the doctor and hospital lining all of that up, and I guess my tone set off some of you. I didn't mean for any of this to be personal, I wasn't trying to offend any Wii owners, and maybe I was a bit TOO descriptive in voicing my opinion.

I don't argue here anymore, hopefully you guys have noticed that, so no "steam coming out of my ears" here and I don't want it coming out of anyone elses either.

Sorry if anything I said came off harshly, my mind isn't all together today, it has been a sad and stress filed day.

A bad day is a bad day; I hope today is already going better for you two. icon_frown I was just debating you, didn't get angry (maybe a little frustrated though icon_wink) and hopefully you didn't either. You know I'm not shy about PM'ing to straighten things out if I feel the line is crossed ([edit: to clarify, that includes me pm'ing when I worry that I've crossed the line!]; I respect you and like you (awwwww!) despite having opposing views, much like any two people are bound to.
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« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2007, 07:14:54 PM »

Here's another reason why I hope Microsoft finishes in third place this generation: sponsored achievements!

I just read on QT3 that EA is including paid advertisements in their "Achievement Unlocked' popup balloons within the new Need For Speed. When you receive the acheivement, "My First Wreck", it helpfully informs you that this achievement was brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

 finger EA and Microsoft.

EDIT: I can't spell.
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« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2007, 07:54:57 PM »

I can just see it now. You are playing a race, you had an early snafu and fell to the back of the pack. You have raced nearly perfectly since then. You have inched your way into 2nd place. You are slowly making progress on the car in front of you. You get right on the leader's rear bumper. You are poised to make your move. You start to creep towards the inside of the road to make your move. BAM!

"We interrupt your thrilling race for some advertisements you can't skip!"

After 2 minutes the ads finally end.

"Now back to your game already in progress."

It returns to the race, you lose control of the car, and crash.

That will be when I say "Game Over".
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« Reply #106 on: December 04, 2007, 10:31:09 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on December 04, 2007, 07:14:54 PM

Here's another reason why I hope Microsoft finishes in third place this generation: sponsored achievements!

I just read on QT3 that EA is including paid advertisements in their "Achievement Unlocked' popup balloons within the new Need For Speed. When you receive the acheivement, "My First Wreck", it helpfully informs you that this achievement was brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

 finger EA and Microsoft.

EDIT: I can't spell.

LOL that's scary and awesome at the same time.
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« Reply #107 on: December 04, 2007, 10:32:16 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on December 04, 2007, 07:14:54 PM

Here's another reason why I hope Microsoft finishes in third place this generation: sponsored achievements!

I just read on QT3 that EA is including paid advertisements in their "Achievement Unlocked' popup balloons within the new Need For Speed. When you receive the acheivement, "My First Wreck", it helpfully informs you that this achievement was brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

 finger EA and Microsoft.

EDIT: I can't spell.
Got anything resembling an official source on that?
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« Reply #108 on: December 04, 2007, 10:43:46 PM »

Quote from: Laner on December 04, 2007, 10:32:16 PM

Got anything resembling an official source on that?

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on December 04, 2007, 07:14:54 PM

I just read on QT3

I told you where I got my info. Feel free to believe it or not.
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« Reply #109 on: December 04, 2007, 11:15:04 PM »

I'm all for adding humor value to achievements!
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« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2007, 11:42:51 PM »

I don't see why this isn't something we would be seeing in the PS3 version of the game after Home is released as well.
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« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2007, 11:50:10 PM »

Quote from: Ridah on December 04, 2007, 11:42:51 PM

I don't see why this isn't something we would be seeing in the PS3 version of the game after Home is released as well.

When Sony starts doing it, I'll bash them too. Of course, I don't ever plan on downloading Home, so it isn't as big an issue for me.
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« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2007, 11:51:30 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on December 04, 2007, 10:43:46 PM

Quote from: Laner on December 04, 2007, 10:32:16 PM

Got anything resembling an official source on that?

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on December 04, 2007, 07:14:54 PM

I just read on QT3

I told you where I got my info. Feel free to believe it or not.


I think this is an overreaction.

I presume that this is the thread you're talking about.

You can see the list of ProStreet achievements here.

There's no "popup balloons."  This is just the EA devs adding "Sponsored by Progressive Insurance" to the descriptive text associated with the achievement.  That's it.  Microsoft has nothing to do with it (unless you assert that MSFT should actively prevent developers from adding text of that nature to achievements, which could be debated, I suppose).

---

edited because balloons does not contain an 'e'.
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« Reply #113 on: December 05, 2007, 03:13:38 AM »

Yeah, achievements that are nothing more than glorified ads are totally new
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« Reply #114 on: December 05, 2007, 04:06:28 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on December 04, 2007, 11:51:30 PM

I think this is an overreaction.

This is an internet gaming forum.  Overreacting is what we do best.  icon_biggrin
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« Reply #115 on: December 05, 2007, 04:54:12 AM »

Keep in mind, this is the publishers doing this, not MS.  MS isn't really in a position to tell them not to do that, as they want the game released.
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« Reply #116 on: December 05, 2007, 05:43:06 AM »

Quote from: Turtle on December 05, 2007, 04:54:12 AM

Keep in mind, this is the publishers doing this, not MS.  MS isn't really in a position to tell them not to do that, as they want the game released.

Not true; MSFT could absolutely tell the developer not to do it.  There's a certification checklist for any game released on the platform.  It would be reasonable to put "Must not shill for some 3rd party advertiser in your descriptive text" if so desired.  Or, at least, "Must not shill for some 3rd party advertiser unless you pay us 30% of net proceeds."  That could be a condition of release, just like "must not exceed some set amount of overscan," or "must not exceed 1000 total achievement points" as (in my own opinion, of course) it cheapens the aesthetics to have advertisements shimmed in with the achievements.  EA's not going to drop the release of ProStreet on the 360 because they couldn't foist their Progressive ad onto buyers.

Given that this is a corner case, I'd guess there are no rules surrounding this in the current certification process.  I'll ask.
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Turtle
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« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2007, 05:59:09 AM »

There probably wasn't.  MS has a reason not to want them, since it's advertising on their service and hurts the image of achievements.  They already have a method of advertising, which is the ad bars on the blade interface, which I actually like.  Well, not that I like ads, but their not intrusive, and usually I see stuff I want to try/buy/look at.

On the other hand, it's EA and there's not much you can say to EA.  I mean EA got permission to not use Live servers for their multiplayer sports.
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #118 on: December 05, 2007, 06:41:16 AM »

Quote from: Turtle on December 05, 2007, 05:59:09 AM

On the other hand, it's EA and there's not much you can say to EA.  I mean EA got permission to not use Live servers for their multiplayer sports.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.  EA carries a pretty damn big stick and none of the platform owners are really in a position to tell them otherwise.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2007, 04:29:50 PM »

MS should by EA-  that'd show them  icon_twisted
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