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Author Topic: [PC/360/PS3] Dark Souls  (Read 30170 times)
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Ridah
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« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2011, 01:52:24 AM »

Dark Souls coming out on October 4th, for suuuure.
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« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2011, 02:23:00 AM »

Quote from: Ridah on September 22, 2011, 01:52:24 AM

   
I am counting the days.
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« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2011, 05:57:46 PM »

I have no interest in Dark Souls, as I found Demon Souls insufferably difficult.  But I thought this was an awesome way of handling those who broke the street date:

http://www.diedagain.com/pain-promised-to-those-breaking-dark-souls-street-date

Quote
It's not uncommon for retailers to violate street date restrictions and throw games on the shelf a day early.  But if you happen to try and play the game before it's due for launch, Dark Souls will very much kick a second hole in your ass.

In fact, it already happened in Japan.  After shipment for the September 22nd launch, players who bought their copies of Dark Souls early found that not all was well in the land of FromSoftware's devising.  That's because the developer populated the game with hordes of maxed out Black Phantoms, every last one of them capable of rendering your newborn character a quivering puddle of tears and genetic slurry.

Funny enough, the same fate awaits anyone who tries to log in early in the States.  Dark Souls launches here on October 4th and not a day sooner.  Assuming you find it sitting on a shelf in Target on the 3rd, you may want to alert the oblivious stockboy of his error and explain that the game is virtually unplayable.
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« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2011, 09:06:22 PM »

I got into Demon's Souls pretty late, in fact it wasn't until about 6 months ago that the game clicked. Then I played it until I drooled. Is the new game more of the same but ... harder? LOL! Please say no.

either way, I am stoked for this game. GoW 3, Rage, and Dark souls should hold me over until Skyrim.
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« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2011, 02:17:58 AM »

Quote from: Crusis on September 26, 2011, 09:06:22 PM

LOL! Please say no.
I hate to break it to you.... icon_twisted
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« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2011, 09:02:35 AM »

the mechanics are a bit different because of the check point system. I think for the most part it'll be challenging, but fair.
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« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2011, 01:08:23 PM »

There are ways the first could have been harder while actually making it a better experience.  Many of the bosses and trash enemies could be cheesed, for example, by hitting them from afar and then waiting for them to reset.  One boss could be made to bug out and 2 more were easily (though not quickly) disposed of using stealth and poison/death cloud.  Etc.  I felt that one of the great strengths of Demon's was that you needed to learn how to play extremely efficiently to be successful.  There are few games out there that really force you to be good.  The aforementioned "cheese" detracted from that.
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« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2011, 05:20:04 PM »

I still don't understand why they don't add a "casual mode" (easy mode) as well as the "regular mode" in all it's hardcore glory.  I guess they are happy with making less money.
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Vikki
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« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2011, 06:00:20 PM »

Damn awesome new trailer:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFSzkQHm1AY&feature=feedu


Warning there are bosses in the trailer so it could be a bit of a spoiler

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« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2011, 06:05:41 PM »

Quote from: skystride on September 27, 2011, 05:20:04 PM

I still don't understand why they don't add a "casual mode" (easy mode) as well as the "regular mode" in all it's hardcore glory.  I guess they are happy with making less money.

Dark Souls would be a day one purchase for me if they'd done this.  As is, I'm skipping it altogether...controller-throwing levels of frustration are typically not my idea of fun.
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« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2011, 06:26:53 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on September 27, 2011, 06:05:41 PM

Quote from: skystride on September 27, 2011, 05:20:04 PM

I still don't understand why they don't add a "casual mode" (easy mode) as well as the "regular mode" in all it's hardcore glory.  I guess they are happy with making less money.

Dark Souls would be a day one purchase for me if they'd done this.  As is, I'm skipping it altogether...controller-throwing levels of frustration are typically not my idea of fun.

Same thing for me - I keep wanting to find ways to make myself want to get it, but then I read how its even more frustrating than the original and I just can't do it.
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Morgul
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« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2011, 06:28:39 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on September 27, 2011, 06:05:41 PM

Quote from: skystride on September 27, 2011, 05:20:04 PM

I still don't understand why they don't add a "casual mode" (easy mode) as well as the "regular mode" in all it's hardcore glory.  I guess they are happy with making less money.

Dark Souls would be a day one purchase for me if they'd done this.  As is, I'm skipping it altogether...controller-throwing levels of frustration are typically not my idea of fun.
+1
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Harkonis
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« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2011, 06:34:48 PM »

I'm kind of pleased that the developers are sticking with their vision.  Not everything should be made to cater to everyone.  Movies, art, music, games.  It shouldn't all be about how to get the most sales.

They know they won't sell to the casual crowd, they are even making sure all the ads blatantly point out how hard it is.  Pussies need not apply  slywink
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« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2011, 06:45:03 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on September 27, 2011, 06:34:48 PM

I'm kind of pleased that the developers are sticking with their vision.  Not everything should be made to cater to everyone.  Movies, art, music, games.  It shouldn't all be about how to get the most sales.

They know they won't sell to the casual crowd, they are even making sure all the ads blatantly point out how hard it is.  Pussies need not apply  slywink
^^ this says it well.  I would also add that the original game was designed with the difficulty in mind.  There's the sense of accomplishment at making it through a level (even part of a level) -- you really get to know the level -- and the constant palpable threat that really are the meat of the game.  Designing easy mode would be like designing a whole other game. 

I  can't imagine running around the current levels to round up, say, golden skeletons and AOE them down while chewing a twizzler.  Diablo and TQ do that well.  DS does atmosphere, isolation, focus and challenge well.
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« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2011, 07:10:48 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on September 27, 2011, 06:05:41 PM

Quote from: skystride on September 27, 2011, 05:20:04 PM

I still don't understand why they don't add a "casual mode" (easy mode) as well as the "regular mode" in all it's hardcore glory.  I guess they are happy with making less money.

Dark Souls would be a day one purchase for me if they'd done this.  As is, I'm skipping it altogether...controller-throwing levels of frustration are typically not my idea of fun.

I never once felt that demon's souls was unfair hard. unfair hard would be some bosses in Catherine. It was challenging enough that you had to use skill and be prepared. If you took your time the levels were fairly easy. Once you play the bosses a few times you should know their patterns and what you gotta do. Besides, the death penalty was pretty fair. You could farm souls fairly easily in 4-3 anyways.
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« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2011, 07:16:11 PM »

To be fair, I don't have a PS3 so I never played the first game.  I've just heard about how brutally difficult it is, which doesn't interest me in the least.

Kudos to the devs for sticking with their vision (so few do that nowadays)...just bummed that I can't really get on board with it, since the graphics and atmosphere of this game look pretty awesome.
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skystride
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« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2011, 07:50:13 PM »

Adding a separate mode that tweaks difficulty doesn't take much resources and doesn't mess with the integrity of their vision.  I think they are just being stupid.  e.g. Civilization 4 is a damn hard game.  Did throwing in an easy mode in there ruin it?
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Harkonis
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« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2011, 08:08:53 PM »

Moreso than just 'being hard' the game seems to be more about being cautious and smart and thinking before you do something.

Adding an easier difficulty DOES mess with the integrity of their vision.  That's like saying that the special edition of Star Wars didn't mess with the integrity of the original.  I think you are being stupid.   ninja

Civ 4 isn't being made as a dev's 'baby' and I really don't think they gave a damn about artistic vision or getting anything out of it other than money.  When the whole vision of your game is that 'life is hard, be smart and learn from your mistakes' watering that down removes that.

I think the Namco was stupid for not making a mode where ghosts jump the walls to keep me on my toes. I also think they were stupid for not making an easier mode where I can hit a button to activate a power pill slywink  We could go on forever. 

The game is what the dev's want it to be.  There are tons of games that don't have what I want them to, so I don't buy them.  Rarely do I feel the devs are stupid for not including it.  Hell, maybe it does have a difficulty selection in their somewhere, maybe this arguing is for nothing.   I just think your reasoning is kind of silly.  I get the feeling they actively don't want people who play on casual settings to play their games.  It is an 'elite' club with a sense of satisfaction for a reason.
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« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2011, 08:18:27 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on September 27, 2011, 08:08:53 PM

The game is what the dev's want it to be.  There are tons of games that don't have what I want them to, so I don't buy them.  Rarely do I feel the devs are stupid for not including it.  Hell, maybe it does have a difficulty selection in their somewhere, maybe this arguing is for nothing.   I just think your reasoning is kind of silly.  I get the feeling they actively don't want people who play on casual settings to play their games.  It is an 'elite' club with a sense of satisfaction for a reason.

I can see both sides.  On the one hand I like that they have this sense of "integrity" to maintain their artistic vision of how their game is supposed to be played.  Good for them for that.  On the other I also don't see how it affects anyone else to allow me or someone else to experience some portion of their vision in a more relaxed version.  Presuming MP is separated, does me playing the game in easy mode change anything for anyone else?  I'm playing Gears of War 3 in the easiest difficulty, does that somehow ruin the game for you?  Kind of like gay marriage, if I were to marry CK, how does that affect your marriage?  But that's another topic entirely lol.
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Harkonis
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« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2011, 08:34:43 PM »

Quote from: rittchard on September 27, 2011, 08:18:27 PM

Quote from: Harkonis on September 27, 2011, 08:08:53 PM

The game is what the dev's want it to be.  There are tons of games that don't have what I want them to, so I don't buy them.  Rarely do I feel the devs are stupid for not including it.  Hell, maybe it does have a difficulty selection in their somewhere, maybe this arguing is for nothing.   I just think your reasoning is kind of silly.  I get the feeling they actively don't want people who play on casual settings to play their games.  It is an 'elite' club with a sense of satisfaction for a reason.

I can see both sides.  On the one hand I like that they have this sense of "integrity" to maintain their artistic vision of how their game is supposed to be played.  Good for them for that.  On the other I also don't see how it affects anyone else to allow me or someone else to experience some portion of their vision in a more relaxed version.  Presuming MP is separated, does me playing the game in easy mode change anything for anyone else?  I'm playing Gears of War 3 in the easiest difficulty, does that somehow ruin the game for you?  Kind of like gay marriage, if I were to marry CK, how does that affect your marriage?  But that's another topic entirely lol.

Are you saying playing Gears on casual is like a gay marriage?   ninja

The Gears example isn't really the same thing btw, because in that case not only do they really want to sell a buttload of copies, but they want as many people to see their story as possible.  Casual is all a lot of people who buy it will ever finish.  I played it on Casual smile  The difficulty of Gears wasn't the point of the game.  It doesn't hurt the mood or atmosphere, and I could argue that it's meant to be a mainstream McDonald's type mass consumed game anyway, so the integrity of the vision isn't as important either.

The difficulty of Dark Souls IS a part of the point.  Part of their motivation when making it was 'I would like to make a game that's incredibly tough, but rewarding to people who play smart and think things through'.  Making an easy mode compromises that quite badly.
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« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2011, 09:00:18 PM »

It's also somewhat different to say, "I don't like to play punishing games, yet Dark Souls intrigues me; I wish I could experience all the rest and leave the frustration behind" as opposed to saying "It's stupid not to have an easy mode".  I would respond to the former with what Hark said so much more eloquently.  The latter is either just the former in aggressive blame others mode or a comment on the economic efficacy of making a niche game.

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« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2011, 09:47:19 PM »

Hark completely dodged the point how a game having an easy mode ruins his experience while playing the hardcore mode.  If the whole thing is just to be in an elite club then that is a pretty lame excuse.  I mean are you really going to have a who has the biggest dick argument based on how hard your game is?  What is elite anyway, spending 60+ hrs in a game?  Most people here could finish Demons Souls if they put that much time in it.  Yep, still don't see how artistic integrity is compromised with an easy mode included.

Soren Johnson will strongly disagree with the point that Civ 4 is not a dev's 'baby'.
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Harkonis
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« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2011, 11:27:30 PM »

Quote from: skystride on September 27, 2011, 09:47:19 PM

Hark completely dodged the point how a game having an easy mode ruins his experience while playing the hardcore mode.  If the whole thing is just to be in an elite club then that is a pretty lame excuse.  I mean are you really going to have a who has the biggest dick argument based on how hard your game is?  What is elite anyway, spending 60+ hrs in a game?  Most people here could finish Demons Souls if they put that much time in it.  Yep, still don't see how artistic integrity is compromised with an easy mode included.

Soren Johnson will strongly disagree with the point that Civ 4 is not a dev's 'baby'.

I didn't dodge the point, you're just being obtuse.  Easy mode wouldn't affect ME in the slightest.  The developers vision of their game is that it's hard.  They want to know when people beat their game, it's because they went through the hard stuff.  If they make an easy mode, that is gone.  I personally dont' care if they have a mode that walks through the game and attacks and defends on it's own so you can never die just so people can complete it.  We'll call that the Sky Mode if it pleases you.

Also, time spent on a game has nothing to do with how hard it is or whether it's elite to have completed it.  By bringing up Gears and Civ 4 though you guys have showed that you aren't grasping the reason behind the decision at all, and I'm pretty sure no more explanation will be able to get through to you. frown

If a movie had a huge twist which pretty much made the movie good as opposed to it being bad without it, wouldn't it compromise the movie's value if when you start watching it there was a button to just skip to the ending and show it?  I think it would.  I'm not sure you understand the concept of integrity in art. 
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« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2011, 12:03:28 AM »

Quote from: Gratch on September 27, 2011, 07:16:11 PM

To be fair, I don't have a PS3 so I never played the first game.  I've just heard about how brutally difficult it is, which doesn't interest me in the least.

Kudos to the devs for sticking with their vision (so few do that nowadays)...just bummed that I can't really get on board with it, since the graphics and atmosphere of this game look pretty awesome.

Weren't you saying in the iphone thread that you liked roguelikes like Fargoal?  This is the same idea or at least very similar IMO.
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« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2011, 12:21:37 AM »

its strange you mentioned movies harkonis because my first thought about the whole "easy mode addition" was to think what if there had been a completely color version of schindlers list for people who just dont like black and white movies - i ended up thinking that yeah, that probably would have changed the perception and legacy of that movie as opposed to just having the intended version.  it would have dulled the impact.

and i like the star wars reference.  i know that my perception of lucas went from someone willing to go out on a limb with a big budget, adult oriented scifi space opera to a shameless sellout willing to add 30 seconds of footage every 4 years to get a paycheck.  i know it makes money, but it doesnt change the fact that its (literally!) selling out.  does it make empire a worse movie?  im not sure, but it sure does make me wish for the glory days when empire could be made, as opposed to an homogenized legion or as a remake with a new camera angle in that one scene because daddy needs a new boat!

and all that aside i really do think rebalancing the entire pacing and difficulty of the game isnt nearly as simple as tossing in a slider that halves hitpoints and damage.  frankly i wouldnt want the devs to waste time tweaking every encounter in the game.  they know the market they wanted to cater to, they ran with it and it got them game of the year for a title that so many execs thought would fail, it almost never made it stateside.  kudos to them for doing what they do, probably in the face of enormous pressure to make the game as mass market as possible, so they can make the game they want as they think it should be made.  if you want to see the story, watch it on youtube or wait for someone to cash in and go read the novel or watch the movie.  heck, if you want a more immersive experience, do it while clicking your thousandth goblin in diablo 3
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« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2011, 01:20:39 AM »

Demons Soul on the PS3 is by far the most difficult but most rewarding game I've played in years.  It makes me remember when I used to play the original X-com in ironman mode.

Dark souls will definitely not be for everyone  slywink
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« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2011, 01:28:35 AM »

I think the roguelike comparison is probably the closest. From what I've seen of the two games, it is like a roguelike writ large, and with great graphics.
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« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2011, 01:36:32 AM »

id also like to say i hate this thread, as ive personally been ramping up my own hype wagon over the last 3 or 4 days - but the new influx of discussion is going to make the wait interminable - i was going to wait a few days after release for (as i mentioned in the multiplayer thread) early rage quits - but im inching closer to day one... slywink
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« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2011, 02:16:12 AM »

6 days, 11 hours, 43 minutes, 57 seconds.
     
Have I mentioned that I'm counting the days (hours/minutes/seconds)? smile
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« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2011, 02:48:27 AM »

Quote from: kathode on September 28, 2011, 12:03:28 AM

Weren't you saying in the iphone thread that you liked roguelikes like Fargoal?  This is the same idea or at least very similar IMO.
   
It's interesting that you should mention this.
  
Way back when Demons' Souls first released in the US, I bought the game before I even owned a PS3. smile
    
I had been playing the game in the first level of the castle. I was still trying to wrap my mind around the game and wondering about the difficulty, when Chaz posted this:
    

Quote from: Chaz on October 08, 2009, 08:07:32 PM

Yeah, it's definitely slow and steady difficulty.  If you go into it like you would a rogue-like, and expect that death will happen, and just endeavor to delay it as long as possible/make it as spectacular as possible, you'll be fine.  
   
The lightbulb went off in my head with that observation and I loved every minute of Demons' Souls from that moment on, once I went in with the rogue-like mindset (I even played almost all the way through the + mode because I was so enamored with the game).
        
The sad thing about looking back at that thread is all the posts (help/advice/camaraderie) by DamageInc in that thread. frown
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« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2011, 02:52:13 AM »

I want this game and all its hardcore glory inside me!!!!
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« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2011, 03:11:44 AM »

Quote from: The Grue on September 28, 2011, 02:52:13 AM

I want this game and all its hardcore glory inside me!!!!

Yowzers!
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« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2011, 06:10:45 AM »

So I was watching the preview video on the 360, I'm gathering that the co-op is not exactly what people are expecting. Or at least doing co-op with specific people of your choosing may not be easy.

Sounded like it is the same as Demon Souls, where as I understand it, you had to really jump through hoops to get someone specific in your game.

Hopefully I am wrong about that.
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« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2011, 08:33:06 AM »

Quote from: USMC Kato on September 28, 2011, 01:20:39 AM

Demons Soul on the PS3 is by far the most difficult but most rewarding game I've played in years.  It makes me remember when I used to play the original X-com in ironman mode.

Dark souls will definitely not be for everyone  slywink

BOOM, this is the reason. It's a challenge, but god damn when you overcome it you feel like you can punch Jackie chan in the face he'll run off crying to his mom. I think you guys are making this harder than it really is in your mind. Catherine was a harder game Demon's souls. I would even say Persona 3 is harder than it too, but that's cause of marin fucking karin stupid AI.

I was scared shitless going into the game because I had it in my head I would be dying every 3 feet to every enemy because the game was built to fuck your face just because god hated your guts. But it's not that, at all. Is it challenging? Yes. Is it hard and unforgivable? Not at all. Everything can be beat and in different ways.

This is what I want from gaming. I want challenges that make me feel awesome after beating them. One reason I like playing SC2. I suck so bad, but god damn does it feel good to win.
Look, the first game is like 20 bucks, probably cheaper used. borrow from someone if you can. But give the game a shot this weekend and then pick up the sequel on Tuesday and feel like a true bad ass gamer.
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« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2011, 08:34:04 AM »

You're not wrong about that.  Well anyways I heard that if you turn on party chat then the game kicks you out.
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« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2011, 10:06:28 AM »

One issue with having a difficulty level in Dark Souls is that the multiplayer is always on and that other players can invade your game. How do you integrate that with difficulties? Disable multiplayer altogether on lower difficulties? Then you'd be left with a shell of a game.
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« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2011, 12:34:29 PM »

Quote from: skystride on September 27, 2011, 09:47:19 PM

Hark completely dodged the point how a game having an easy mode ruins his experience while playing the hardcore mode.  If the whole thing is just to be in an elite club then that is a pretty lame excuse.  I mean are you really going to have a who has the biggest dick argument based on how hard your game is?  What is elite anyway, spending 60+ hrs in a game?  Most people here could finish Demons Souls if they put that much time in it.  Yep, still don't see how artistic integrity is compromised with an easy mode included.

Soren Johnson will strongly disagree with the point that Civ 4 is not a dev's 'baby'.

I do think an easy mode would compromise what the game is about.  It's very much trying to create a certain sense of mood and a specific type of experience.   Someone compared it to a roguelike and that's apt with a key difference being there is no perma death.  Death in fact is a core mechanic to the games, where you can recover your body to get your accrued souls back, but if you die on your way there you set a new marker and lose all the souls of the previous corpse.  This works towards establishing a sense of dread as well as encouraging a very methodical approach. This sense of dread is something they are very much shooting for, from the gameplay mechanics to the art and music, From is very much trying to establish a mood.

The methodical play is another important element.  DS was a learning experience.  You often would die not because you were bad at combat but because you were careless, or you needed to change your approach to a given situation.  And the important thing to note here is you're not doing this all alone and I'm not talking about co-op.  The game is a collective learning experience for the entire community.  As you play you will see other players phase into your world and see what they are doing.  If they have died you will find bloodstains on the floor and can click on them to see how they died, you can leave messages on the floor giving warnings and advice about upcoming areas for players in other games to see.  I may get ambushed going through a door, but now I can leave a warning for the next set of players to be careful here.

Not every game gets multiple difficulty levels,  I can't think of a single MMO that has them, and in a way Demon's Souls and now this are their own type of weird MMO.
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Harkonis
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« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2011, 01:32:34 PM »

Ohh, I might sign up for WoW if they add an easy difficulty!  ninja
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Doopri
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« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2011, 02:18:08 PM »

ah i meant to ask this earlier - ill be playing on the 360 - is it worth it to pick up that text pad thingie?  or is the game going to use some other interface to input text rather than the usual 360 popup keyboard?
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forgeforsaken
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« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2011, 02:35:39 PM »

Quote from: Doopri on September 28, 2011, 02:18:08 PM

ah i meant to ask this earlier - ill be playing on the 360 - is it worth it to pick up that text pad thingie?  or is the game going to use some other interface to input text rather than the usual 360 popup keyboard?

In Demon's Souls you were choosing preset phrases or making them from a selection.  You really didn't type anything.  I expect this to be the same. 
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