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Author Topic: [PC/360/PS3] Dark Souls  (Read 27854 times)
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skystride
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« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2011, 03:22:14 PM »

Quote from: Doopri on September 28, 2011, 12:21:37 AM

its strange you mentioned movies harkonis because my first thought about the whole "easy mode addition" was to think what if there had been a completely color version of schindlers list for people who just dont like black and white movies - i ended up thinking that yeah, that probably would have changed the perception and legacy of that movie as opposed to just having the intended version.  it would have dulled the impact.

and i like the star wars reference.  i know that my perception of lucas went from someone willing to go out on a limb with a big budget, adult oriented scifi space opera to a shameless sellout willing to add 30 seconds of footage every 4 years to get a paycheck.  i know it makes money, but it doesnt change the fact that its (literally!) selling out.  does it make empire a worse movie?  im not sure, but it sure does make me wish for the glory days when empire could be made, as opposed to an homogenized legion or as a remake with a new camera angle in that one scene because daddy needs a new boat!

Don't watch the coloured version of Schlinder's List and your experience is not compromised.

Star Wars example doesn't work for me.  It's not like there is a good version of Episode 1.  George Lucas removed the hardcore mode and only added an easy mode.  Also, the original Star Wars wasn't exactly a niche movie.
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Doopri
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« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2011, 03:48:28 PM »

it not so much that i can watch the original version, its that the legacy and impact of the film probably doesnt live on like it has simply because a (probably large) segment of the viewership would never have seen the movie as intended.

and in industries where homogenization and mass market appeal become the norm (like movies and games) its good to see that the niche can still survive.  as someone whos watched several of his favorite franchises and genres slowly stripped down to "just another game" its important to me.

if shindlers list were remade, itd be in full color, starring the latest hollywood hardbody, an action flick and called defiance.


and thanks forge - reaching way back in memory - any idea if itll be like the awesome system employed in chromehounds (or has this even been taken up in previews?)

*edit to add - im also starting to feel dirty comparing SL to a video game
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Chaz
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« Reply #82 on: September 28, 2011, 03:57:16 PM »

I think a better analogy for the difficulty mode question would be subtitles for films.  I don't speak French, for example, so I can't experience a French film the way the director "intended".  However, with subtitles, I can at least have the ability to watch the film and appreciate it as best I can.  If the option for subtitles wasn't there, I'd just never be able to experience it at all.

Similarly, for some people, the difficulty will completely prevent them from playing the game.  The addition of an easier mode at least allows them to experience a version of the game, even if it's not the "pure" experience.  If you can understand French/are able to deal with the difficulty, then you'll be able to get the complete and intended experience by watching the movie in French/playing on hard.
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« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2011, 04:31:20 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on September 27, 2011, 07:16:11 PM

To be fair, I don't have a PS3 so I never played the first game.  I've just heard about how brutally difficult it is, which doesn't interest me in the least.

Honestly, I think most Mario platformers are probably "harder". As was already stated, the game may be difficult, but it is in a "fair" way. It isn't a rush through and slay stuff game. If you approach it like God of War, you will die, a lot.

As for players being able to invade, yeah that can be intimidating, but assuming they are keeping the same system, this can only happen when you are fully alive, so it isn't like you can get pummeled repeatedly.
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« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2011, 05:46:40 PM »

Quote from: Chaz on September 28, 2011, 03:57:16 PM

I think a better analogy for the difficulty mode question would be subtitles for films.  I don't speak French, for example, so I can't experience a French film the way the director "intended".  However, with subtitles, I can at least have the ability to watch the film and appreciate it as best I can.  If the option for subtitles wasn't there, I'd just never be able to experience it at all.

Similarly, for some people, the difficulty will completely prevent them from playing the game.  The addition of an easier mode at least allows them to experience a version of the game, even if it's not the "pure" experience.  If you can understand French/are able to deal with the difficulty, then you'll be able to get the complete and intended experience by watching the movie in French/playing on hard.

I think this is an excellent analogy! 

I also think with this game, the whole "non-compromise" on difficulty is at least in part a marketing ploy - in some ways its issuing a challenge to gamers and questioning their manhood, which certainly is one way to draw attention.  Would this game have this much extra discussion and buzz were it not for the whole "hardcore elitism" angle or would it get lost amongst multiple other RPGs?  Who knows?
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Doopri
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« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2011, 06:37:43 PM »

i guess subtitles are sort of akin to it.  but subtitles dont actually change the underlying movie.  even if they dont change the movie they still cost money to implement (developer time / resources in game terms)

and as i said before i think adding an easy mode does change the game - the developers have to take time away from creating the "real" game to rebalance and alter boss fight and each encounter in the game - i dont think its as simple as changing stats from 100 HPs to 50 HPs

and finally a HUGE part of the game is creating this "shared experience" of players slogging through this impossible world.  someone watches a ghost of another player take a novel tactic against an enemy that has stymied the first player for an hour and now is able to solve that fight. whereas having the ghost of three easy players fly by, two shot it and then run through a hoard of undead like rambo offers no help or solace.  so now the developers have to alter network code, filtering streams so "normal" and "easy" players dont intersect in their worlds...

and we all know how easy and quick it is to perfect network code, right?  right?
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Doopri
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« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2011, 06:40:55 PM »

Quote
were it not for the whole "hardcore elitism" angle or would it get lost amongst multiple other RPGs?  Who knows?

i think thats the whole point - without creating this bleak, impossible, atmospheric and dark world it WOULD BE pretty much every other action / rpg!  thats why its great when someone steps out of that, instead of making one more of the same it offers something different
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forgeforsaken
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« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2011, 06:44:34 PM »

Quote from: rittchard on September 28, 2011, 05:46:40 PM



I think this is an excellent analogy! 

I also think with this game, the whole "non-compromise" on difficulty is at least in part a marketing ploy - in some ways its issuing a challenge to gamers and questioning their manhood, which certainly is one way to draw attention.  Would this game have this much extra discussion and buzz were it not for the whole "hardcore elitism" angle or would it get lost amongst multiple other RPGs?  Who knows?

Please see my earlier post for why I think this is not really accurate.  It's not about hardcore elitism.
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Harkonis
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« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2011, 08:18:58 PM »

casual elitism?  ninja
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skystride
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« Reply #89 on: September 28, 2011, 08:27:48 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on September 28, 2011, 06:44:34 PM

Quote from: rittchard on September 28, 2011, 05:46:40 PM



I think this is an excellent analogy! 

I also think with this game, the whole "non-compromise" on difficulty is at least in part a marketing ploy - in some ways its issuing a challenge to gamers and questioning their manhood, which certainly is one way to draw attention.  Would this game have this much extra discussion and buzz were it not for the whole "hardcore elitism" angle or would it get lost amongst multiple other RPGs?  Who knows?

Please see my earlier post for why I think this is not really accurate.  It's not about hardcore elitism.

You just outlined how DS mechanics works.  Not sure how that answers this question.

And for the record, I can't recall if I ever played a game on anything less than Normal difficulty (maybe once or twice but I can't remember the last time I did it).  I just don't like this idea of an elitist club.  I like to talk about games I enjoy with as many people as possible.  Even if my friend is playing at a different difficulty, we can still have discussions about the game.  I also want as many people as possible to appreciate what is fun about a niche title.  For example, League of Legends brought in casual gamers to a genre that was extremely hardcore and I love it for that.  I can finally play a MOBA game with my casual gamer friends who would never have touched DOTA.  And once they've tried it, they often become hardcore fans themselves.  Another example is WoW.  It brought in people who didn't even know what an MMO is.  Thanks to WoW, I have many more friends that are looking forward to playing a game like Guild Wars 2.

So is it such a bad thing for DS to attract more gamers.  If they liked easy mode enough they may even migrate to the "true" mode.  Most developers would want as many people as possible to appreciate what makes their game great even if it's a niche title like a flight-sim (heck even DCS A-10 has an easy mode and that game is as hardcore as it gets).  It's not just a money thing although obviously you make more money this way.  The best game designers find a way to show as many people as possible what makes their great even when the barrier to entry is "high difficulty", "steep learning curve", "niche subject matter" etc.
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« Reply #90 on: September 28, 2011, 08:36:50 PM »

have you even played demon's souls? or are you just basing this around what you heard like i stated earlier? demon's souls is not hard, it's challenging, but not hard.

it's not about some club, wtf does this even mean anyways? it's about a game that actually challenges you for once. if there was no challenge DS wouldn't be talked about. There is almost no story to hook players. The hook is overcoming the game. That's the entire point of the game and you want it removed? Like seriously, this is what you're asking for. All these movie analogies are retarded, they make no sense in the content of gaming, ever. You can't compare to way different things to each other, it doesn't work.

Look, it's quite obvious you just want to shit all over this game w/o having actually played it. That's great, but how about you goto some other thread to do so? This is becoming pointless because you guys are getting hard on about some club that you weren't invited to. Guess fucking what, ANYONE CAN PLAY THE GAME!!!! There, welcome to the mysterious club, new members must bring brownies.

ffs.
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Harkonis
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« Reply #91 on: September 28, 2011, 08:42:50 PM »

I want a BA, but without having to go through all that hard school stuff.  Might be better to make it more accessible to people like me who don't like to go to classes. <--- I R INSTIGATING
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Chaz
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« Reply #92 on: September 28, 2011, 08:52:34 PM »

Wow, I don't think I was shitting all over anything.  I imported Demon's Souls and have Dark Souls on preorder.  I can live with the difficulty/challenge/whatever you want to call it, but I understand that not everyone wants to.  Some of those people want to experience the game, but the challenge isn't appealing to them.  I get this.  Difficulty is so subjective that it's absolutely conceivable that what one person finds challenging in a good way might cause someone else to throw a controller through the screen.

Saying that the difficulty is the only reason to play it is selling the game a little short.  They've done a fantastic job with world building and enemy design.  It's not crazy to think that someone might want to play through the game at an easier difficulty to experience those two things, whereas they might get frustrated and either stop or not play in the first place without the option.

And I think there's less connection between being able to finish a game and getting your bachelor's than there is between a game and a movie.  slywink  Tongue
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« Reply #93 on: September 28, 2011, 08:54:00 PM »

Having finished Demon's Souls and playing LoL on a regular basis, LoL is way way more frustrating than DS ever was.
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« Reply #94 on: September 28, 2011, 09:31:38 PM »

New All Saints Day trailer up.
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« Reply #95 on: September 28, 2011, 10:14:00 PM »

Quote from: Chaz on September 28, 2011, 08:52:34 PM

Wow, I don't think I was shitting all over anything.  I imported Demon's Souls and have Dark Souls on preorder.  I can live with the difficulty/challenge/whatever you want to call it, but I understand that not everyone wants to.  Some of those people want to experience the game, but the challenge isn't appealing to them.  I get this.  Difficulty is so subjective that it's absolutely conceivable that what one person finds challenging in a good way might cause someone else to throw a controller through the screen.

Saying that the difficulty is the only reason to play it is selling the game a little short.  They've done a fantastic job with world building and enemy design.  It's not crazy to think that someone might want to play through the game at an easier difficulty to experience those two things, whereas they might get frustrated and either stop or not play in the first place without the option.

Again have to agree with the Chaz with everything said...

It's so funny, every time I read a preview or description, they hook me in one sentence and then turn me off in the next.  At the moment I'm leaning back towards trying it out but I have a week to be wishy washy and change my mind another 10 times.

Since the analogies to other media are not welcome, how about to other games?  What if, for instance, Diablo 2 was released in a state equivalent to Hardcore Hell difficulty, with the reasoning that it is/was Blizzard's unyielding vision to create a dark roguelike game.  I imagine a similar discussion would have happened and a lot of players would likely feel alienated.  But does the fact that some players enjoyed D2 in the normal, non-hardcore version diminish the fun and difficulty or "artistry" of the Hardcore Hell experience?  I really don't think so.  Having played both (and pretty much everything in between), I can say they are very very different experiences, and I loved them in different ways.  I just don't know if I'd ever have played HC if I hadn't wet my feet in normal, or if I'd even bought the game if all there was was a HC version.

I like the vision I've read about for Dark Souls, I like the idea of learning from mistakes and dying as a game mechanic, I like all the things I've read about the story and the environment.  I just don't have as much time and patience for some things as I used to, so some additional options would have been nice.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 10:16:17 PM by rittchard » Logged
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« Reply #96 on: September 28, 2011, 10:27:43 PM »

The thing is, with the exception of the bosses, the game isn't as hard as the other games being talked about in a conventional sense.  Like I said group discovery from the community is a key element of the game.  Here's an example from Demon's Souls and I'd like someone to tell me how they would solve this with Easy mode.  On the very first level of the game after the tutorial map, at one point you can go left of right.  If you go right you will encounter one of the hardest normal enemies in the game.  If you attempt to fight him at this point in the game at best you may be able to run from him and not die, but you pretty much have no shot at killing him.  Now, when you get there you will likely see a lot of bloodstains of people that tried, and as time goes on there will be messages from other players warning of "very tough enemy"   and eventually "should be level XX to proceed" as people come back and eventually are able to kill him.  Now I know that this style of play isn't for everyone, but the difficulty there is not something you can solve by adding an easy mode.
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« Reply #97 on: September 28, 2011, 10:31:21 PM »

Quote from: jersoc on September 28, 2011, 08:36:50 PM

have you even played demon's souls? or are you just basing this around what you heard like i stated earlier? demon's souls is not hard, it's challenging, but not hard.

ffs.

This is a forum where we are allowed to criticize games right?  Or is it only adoring fanboy comments allowed?

P.S. I imported Demon Souls and played it enough that I am allowed to comment.
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skystride
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« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2011, 10:34:31 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on September 28, 2011, 10:27:43 PM

The thing is, with the exception of the bosses, the game isn't as hard as the other games being talked about in a conventional sense.  Like I said group discovery from the community is a key element of the game.  Here's an example from Demon's Souls and I'd like someone to tell me how they would solve this with Easy mode.  On the very first level of the game after the tutorial map, at one point you can go left of right.  If you go right you will encounter one of the hardest normal enemies in the game.  If you attempt to fight him at this point in the game at best you may be able to run from him and not die, but you pretty much have no shot at killing him.  Now, when you get there you will likely see a lot of bloodstains of people that tried, and as time goes on there will be messages from other players warning of "very tough enemy"   and eventually "should be level XX to proceed" as people come back and eventually are able to kill him.  Now I know that this style of play isn't for everyone, but the difficulty there is not something you can solve by adding an easy mode.

You will just miss out on this experience in easy mode.  The normal mode players still get the exact same satisfaction.
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« Reply #99 on: September 29, 2011, 12:47:37 AM »

Here's the funny thing for me. I can see both sides of the argument. I'm all about player choice. I screamed for years (and still do) at PC games that don't have a "save anywhere" feature (don't want to save until a checkpoint? Don't. But, don't take away my choice to save wherever I want). I desperately wished for an Easy mode in Ninja Gaiden and even with a certain boss in Final Fantasy XIII.
    
However, with Demons'/Dark Souls, it is such a different game experience that I really do think that an Easy mode would detract from the overall experience.
  
Here's why. As you get more comfortable with the game (Demons' Souls, of course... I'm assuming Dark Souls will be similar), most parts become "easy," as you get more familiar with your character and with the environment/mobs/maps, etc. (You still have to be careful, but I would farm areas later in the game that filled me with dread in the early part of the game).
    
Demons' Souls is one of my all time favorite games. The sense of accomplishment that I felt moving from terrified/weak/incompetent noob in this dark, new world, to adequate/careful/still timid adventurer to accomplished/skilled/"badass" was one of the most rewarding experiences I've had in decades as a gamer.
  
So, just a few personal observations:
      

Quote from: rittchard on September 28, 2011, 10:14:00 PM

Since the analogies to other media are not welcome, how about to other games?  What if, for instance, Diablo 2 was released in a state equivalent to Hardcore Hell difficulty, with the reasoning that it is/was Blizzard's unyielding vision to create a dark roguelike game.  I imagine a similar discussion would have happened and a lot of players would likely feel alienated.  But does the fact that some players enjoyed D2 in the normal, non-hardcore version diminish the fun and difficulty or "artistry" of the Hardcore Hell experience?  I really don't think so.  Having played both (and pretty much everything in between), I can say they are very very different experiences, and I loved them in different ways.  I just don't know if I'd ever have played HC if I hadn't wet my feet in normal, or if I'd even bought the game if all there was was a HC version.as I used to, so some additional options would have been nice.
   
rittch, that's a pretty good example, but here's the difference; Demons' Souls isn't truly "hardcore." Even though your character dies, the only thing you lose are "souls," which is basically just a measure of currency (to level up attributes, skills, buy items, repair, learn spells, etc.). You even have the opportunity to recover those "souls" if you can make it back safely to the place you died. However, even if you can't make it back to recover the "souls," you only lose currency. You never lose levels, skills, items, spells or anything else. You start back at the beginning of the level where you died, but you've only lost currency and, later in the game, the amount of currency that you've lost is almost inconsequential in the grand scheme of the game (it's very easy in later areas to farm significant amounts of "souls").
    
The best example I can give is that there were times in D2 (normal mode), if your stash was at max gold, you could lose a significant amount of gold that you were carrying when you died. In D2, you could then make a run for your body to recover your items, but most of that gold was gone (can't remember how the percentages worked on how much gold you actually lost). However, in Demons' Souls, you never had to make a run to recover your items, you were just trying to make a run to recover your gold (souls).
      
 

Quote from: forgeforsaken on September 28, 2011, 10:27:43 PM

The thing is, with the exception of the bosses, the game isn't as hard as the other games being talked about in a conventional sense.  
   
This is very true.
    
Let me give you an example.
    
When I first started Demons' Souls, I experimented with almost every class. One of my favorites was the Magician, but she ran out of mana rather quickly and I had no way to regen mana at that early level (and I would burn through mana items very quickly). I had literally no chance, in my beginning knowledge of Demons' Souls, to take that Magician through the first level of the game.
    
So, I abandoned the Magician and went for a Barbarian that could wield a Bastard Sword and Metal Shield. I gradually learned/fought/advanced throught the first level of the game (with a lot of trial and error).
  
I will admit to significant frustration along the way, but it was always tempered with an equally significant sense of accomplishment and satisfaction as I learned to progress slowly.
  
Eventually, my Barbarian made it through the entire game and on into the New Game + mode. Beating Demons' Souls was my most fulfilling gaming experience ever. (There are many games that I enjoyed as much, if not more, than Demons' Souls, but none that gave me the "jump for joy, dance around the room" rush that beating Demons' Souls and mending my little corner of Boletaria gave me).
    
So, then, I went back and created a brand new Magician. This was a character with a Short Sword and a Leather Shield (nowhere near as good as the weapons my Barb wielded). The damage that the Short Sword could do was almost laughable in comparison, especially with the Magician's marginal Strength, Dexterity, and Vitality stats. The Magician's strength was in casting spells.
  
However, I was able to play the Magician through the first level (that had seemed so brutally hard the first few times I went through it) all the way through the first level without ever casting a spell. I took her through with just that Short Sword and Leather Shield, meleeing all the way, and even beat the boss of that level.
    
Now, this isn't to say that I'm some uber "elite" gamer (in reference to the "elite" discussion above). Those of you who've played with me in games before know that, if anything, I fall firmly on the casual gamer side of the scale. The point is that, once you learn about the game and the levels, it is very fair and manageable.
    
Now, obviously, there are so many games and so little time/money, that I would never dream of trying to convince anyone to play any game that would cause more frustration than enjoyment, but I really believe that Demons'/Dark Souls difficulty, while considerable, is more a learning curve difficulty and not an unfair or overly punitive difficulty.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 01:29:51 AM by Qantaga » Logged

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« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2011, 01:48:21 PM »

Giantbomb has done a pretty extensive quicklook, I'd suggest those on the fence that never played Demon's Souls give it a watch
http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-dark-souls/17-4966/
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« Reply #101 on: September 29, 2011, 02:21:08 PM »

I played demon souls, for about a hour.  Seemed like I kept dying and going through the same part of the dungeon over and over.  I overcome some, then after awhile I die, and have to do all of it again.

 Controls seemed clunky, and I dont understand all this  soul shit, multiplayer ghosts, etc.

After going through same thing yet again, I said fook it and put in another game.    

I do not know that it was "hard", just seemed like one of those games where repeating content over and over..

But, that said, I like fantasy and the setting looks pretty good.    I like hard games, I dont like repeating things over and over.  Game needed a quick save.    And WTF was with those weird vendors in a weird road?  Then they portaled me somewhere?  It didnt make sense either.  Hell I dunno..

I do know I am not buying this one.   But I probably would if it had a a easier mode...   Thats all I was saying, no reason to get you panties in a wad..

Tons of games to play.   :-)    

Maybe I did not give demon souls a fair shake and should have read more about it or something, but, I guess just didn't care enough to be bothered..  And I still do not.   I gave it a  hour of my time and it did not click..
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 03:57:12 PM by Morgul » Logged
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« Reply #102 on: September 29, 2011, 02:29:07 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on September 29, 2011, 01:48:21 PM

Giantbomb has done a pretty extensive quicklook, I'd suggest those on the fence that never played Demon's Souls give it a watch
http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-dark-souls/17-4966/

18 min is funny
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« Reply #103 on: September 29, 2011, 03:31:13 PM »

The whole wishing for an easy mode thing reminds me of Ninja Gaiden 2.

I loved that game, the setting, the controls, everything...but I really sucked at it.
Always wished they had an easy mode so I could just play through the whole game.

I didn't even get half way before I quit in frustration.  It made me sad.
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« Reply #104 on: September 29, 2011, 04:52:26 PM »

Quote from: Morgul on September 29, 2011, 02:21:08 PM

I played demon souls, for about a hour.  Seemed like I kept dying and going through the same part of the dungeon over and over.  I overcome some, then after awhile I die, and have to do all of it again.

 Controls seemed clunky, and I dont understand all this  soul shit, multiplayer ghosts, etc.

After going through same thing yet again, I said fook it and put in another game.    

Maybe I did not give demon souls a fair shake and should have read more about it or something, but, I guess just didn't care enough to be bothered..  And I still do not.   I gave it a  hour of my time and it did not click..

That's pretty much what my experience was as well...  I always intended to go back and play some more but never got around to it.  I think it definitely requires you spend some serious time with it to get into it and I think subconsciously that prevented me from playing more. 
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« Reply #105 on: September 30, 2011, 12:25:59 AM »

IGN is streaming a 24 hour marathon of playing: http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/119/1196640p1.html

so you can experience the game at it's easiest level  icon_twisted
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« Reply #106 on: September 30, 2011, 01:01:06 AM »

Quote from: rittchard on September 29, 2011, 04:52:26 PM

That's pretty much what my experience was as well...  I always intended to go back and play some more but never got around to it.  I think it definitely requires you spend some serious time with it to get into it and I think subconsciously that prevented me from playing more. 

That's exactly why I'm probably going to pass on Dark Souls.  I'm sure if I had a big chunk of time to devote to it, I could probably end up being successful.  As is, I don't think the (maybe) 30 minutes a day I can carve out for gaming is going to get me anywhere but frustrated.

Maybe I'll give it a look over the holidays when I might actually have a little more time to play.
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« Reply #107 on: September 30, 2011, 01:34:26 AM »

IGN stream is skipping for me. frown  really wanted to watch it, but everything repeats , but everything repeats, every now and then.

really wanted to watch it, but everything repeats
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« Reply #108 on: September 30, 2011, 03:32:45 AM »

I don't think the game is hard per say but as some people have already stated, it is a game which requires a significant time commitment.  People who say that the game is too hard don't realize that dying is a part of the game.  What their problem is, is that they don't have the time that is required to go through the game and die over and over again.  I had the same problem.  I enjoyed the gameplay but at the same time couldn't help thinking 'dammit I'm still on the first level and I could be 1/4 of the way through an Uncharted game right now'.
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« Reply #109 on: September 30, 2011, 07:09:06 PM »

watched the Giant Bomb play through last night and am torn. Do I finish Demons Souls or play Dark Souls on my console of choice......
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« Reply #110 on: September 30, 2011, 07:18:59 PM »

Read a fantastic review:

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/119/1197544p1.html

As usual, one sentence will make me want to jump in and pre-order, the next makes me change my mind lol.

Closing comments seem to sum it up well:

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The reviewer's job is difficult when it comes to a game like Dark Souls. I simply can't unreservedly recommend that you buy it. It's not a game that you play to relax. It doesn't care in the slightest about whether you're enjoying yourself, and it doesn't give a fig for your notions of entertainment or your mental well-being. If you just play games for fun, this isn't for you, and no amount of insistence on my part is going to change that. But if you're interested in the limits of the videogame form – to see just how focused, how pure and how uncompromising in its vision a game can be – Dark Souls is unmissable. If you take the time get into Dark Souls' mindset, to begin to understand the twisted way in which it operates and taste the rewards behind its cruellest challenges, this is one of the most thrilling, most fascinating and most completely absorbing experiences in gaming.
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« Reply #111 on: September 30, 2011, 07:23:27 PM »

Quote from: skystride on September 28, 2011, 10:31:21 PM

Quote from: jersoc on September 28, 2011, 08:36:50 PM

have you even played demon's souls? or are you just basing this around what you heard like i stated earlier? demon's souls is not hard, it's challenging, but not hard.

ffs.

This is a forum where we are allowed to criticize games right?  Or is it only adoring fanboy comments allowed?

P.S. I imported Demon Souls and played it enough that I am allowed to comment.

so you didn't play it and talking out of your ass, got it. i'll disregard your comments about the game then.
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« Reply #112 on: September 30, 2011, 07:44:32 PM »

That was a fascinating review.  I know I have a different mindset than most, but I simply cannot comprehend how something like this would be considered fun:

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There are times, though, when Dark Souls crosses the line from thrillingly challenging to straightforwardly sadistic. There are frog-like sewer-dwelling creatures that can Curse you with their attacks, instantly reducing your health bar to half its former size; the only way to get cured is to visit a healer hidden deep within a dangerous ghost-populated area that's a long, long journey away (or to buy an item from a vendor, if you've got enough souls).

Making your way through Dark Souls' death-trap world with half a health bar is hard enough, but the Curse effect stacks – so if you get caught again, you'll be down to a quarter of a health bar. A third time, you'll be down to an eighth. I know one Dark Souls player who lost something like 10 hours trying to make it to a healer when everything in the world could kill him with one hit. There's punishing, and then there's unfair.

One of the mid-game bosses, meanwhile, emits corrosive bile that swiftly degrades your equipment if you get stuck in its flow, potentially leaving you standing naked in front of a hideous dragon with a broken sword. There's no way to repair weapons and armor once they've been completely destroyed, so it's possible to lose all your best gear in this battle.

It's baffling to me that that everyone is clamoring to experience that.  To each their own, I suppose.
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« Reply #113 on: September 30, 2011, 07:57:31 PM »

It's a roguelike.  At least in this one, you get to keep your equipment when you die.  But you simply have to accept that the game is completely and utterly stacked against you, and you are going to die and lose equipment in over the top and frequently hilarious ways.  Obviously, this isn't for everyone.  Just try and make your deaths as spectacular or ridiculous as possible, and hope your ghost amuses someone else.
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« Reply #114 on: September 30, 2011, 08:15:58 PM »

the days of challenging, punishing, yet rewarding video games is mostly past us.  I look forward to this though.  Look at something difficult, yet rewarding in real life for the type of motivation that can make people do it.  Climb Mt Everest, run a marathon, an Ironman, etc.  Those aren't things that are stictly 'fun', but people get enjoyment out of the rewarding nature of them.  (and the exercise, and the beauty in the case of the climb)
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« Reply #115 on: September 30, 2011, 09:19:53 PM »

It should be interesting to see how the used market for this one is going to fare.  Perhaps a flood after people realize how hard it really is, or a trickle as it is overshadowed by the big boys of fall....
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« Reply #116 on: October 01, 2011, 12:52:32 AM »

Quote from: Gratch on September 30, 2011, 07:44:32 PM

That was a fascinating review.  I know I have a different mindset than most, but I simply cannot comprehend how something like this would be considered fun:

It's baffling to me that that everyone is clamoring to experience that.  To each their own, I suppose.

Yeah you can write something very similar about Rogue or Nethack or Shiren the Wanderer and those games are all very fun to play IMO. 
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« Reply #117 on: October 01, 2011, 12:53:50 AM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on September 29, 2011, 01:48:21 PM

Giantbomb has done a pretty extensive quicklook, I'd suggest those on the fence that never played Demon's Souls give it a watch
http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-dark-souls/17-4966/

lol @ 45:50.  Dragon out of nowhere.
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« Reply #118 on: October 02, 2011, 12:01:22 AM »

That Giant Bomb preview has me salivating. 

Also, for those who want to participate asynchronously, it looks like the wiki is getting going: http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/
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« Reply #119 on: October 03, 2011, 06:57:41 PM »

Looks like the verdict is coming in. According to GameRankings, the current average ranking is 89.69% after 8 reviews (PS3 version), while Metacritic has it at 89 with 14 reviews (also PS3).

A couple of standouts from Metacritic:

GameSpot: "Dark Souls is an extraordinary role-playing game that transports you to an awesome and menacing world you may never forget." - 95/100
Joystiq: "The cycle of Dark Souls is essentially the same: Hours of diligent, often frustrating work followed by a surprising, often spectacular payoff." - 90/100
Edge Magazine: "Dark Souls beckons the masochistic with its chilly indifference. If you steel your nerves and persevere, the loot you'll uncover is an adventure so exquisitely morose and far-ranging that it will tug at your mind insistently during the hours you spend apart." - 90/100
Gamereactor Sweden: "Hard is hard. Though greatly satisfying at times, Dark Souls consists of many hours of pure frustration." - 70/100
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