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Author Topic: [360] Why the 360 fails  (Read 1687 times)
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Destructor
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« on: August 07, 2007, 02:10:37 PM »

Curious as to what exactly happens with the 360 when it runs? Why it gets so damn hot? This site (ignore the fact that the link is from Japan - it's in English) attached a few heat sensors to the innards and brought out some very good numbers (as well as some very good reasons as to why the console fails):

Quote
In only five minutes since we started playing the game, the temperature of the heat sink on the graphics LSI rose to 70°C. The thermal gradient was about 10°C/min.

In 15 minutes, the microprocessor heat sink temperature stabilized at 58°C, but the heat sink on the graphics LSI rose to 80°C, 57°C above the room temperature.

Assuming room temperature of 35°C in mid-summer, the gap is estimated to reach more than 90°C. In that case, the temperature of chips in the graphics LSI could exceed 100°C.


We measured the temperature in good cooling environments, removing dust and obstacles from the vent hole, for example. If the cooling performance lowers with the vent hole choked up or the duct moved over, the LSI's temperature could get even higher.

If the malfunction stemmed from insufficient heat radiation, the graphics LSI and components around it are highly likely to be the failure parts.

Holy mother! While yeah, the parts are designed to run warm, when put in your PC, they have a LOT more ventilation and frankly better heat sink designs. The article states that in order to put in the DVD drive, the heat sink for the graphic card is much smaller than it should be and doesn't get proper airflow to keep it cool.

So...wonder why you get the Red Rings of Death? Now you know. And this is why all 360's made before the redesign (they tested a console made in May '07 and found the original design still) WILL fail. The heat is an absolute killer. Thanks again to Dubious Quality for the tidbit.
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2007, 02:34:15 PM »

i really am ticked off at microsoft for releasing the 360 with such shoddy workmanship under the hood.   icon_mad
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2007, 02:38:09 PM »

The 360 is the first console I've ever had a problem with.  I've still got a launch PS2, a working PS1 that is around 11 years old, my XBox 1 worked for years before I sold it...hell, even my Atari 2600 and original NES are still kicking!  Yet my very gently used 360 craps out after not even 6 months.

It's sad that such an awesome console with so much potential has been hamsturng by piss-poor design.
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2007, 03:02:25 PM »

God I hate the Celsius way of telling temperature.. Is there any way to get the world to use the more precise Fahrenheit system? Metrication is the devil!!!!! icon_evil
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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2007, 03:10:39 PM »

Quote from: jblank on August 07, 2007, 03:02:25 PM

God I hate the Celsius way of telling temperature.. Is there any way to get the world to use the more precise Fahrenheit system? Metrication is the devil!!!!! icon_evil

lol...is that the great artie lange in your avatar?  RM9 would have a fit if you used that over at OO.   icon_biggrin

oh, and add hepcat1 to your XBLive friend's list, ya punk.  i didn't even realize you were on there.
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2007, 03:12:49 PM »

Quote from: jblank on August 07, 2007, 03:02:25 PM

God I hate the Celsius way of telling temperature.. Is there any way to get the world to use the more precise Fahrenheit system? Metrication is the devil!!!!! icon_evil

+1.  I'm feeling too lazy to translate those temps right now.
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2007, 03:15:29 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 07, 2007, 03:10:39 PM

Quote from: jblank on August 07, 2007, 03:02:25 PM

God I hate the Celsius way of telling temperature.. Is there any way to get the world to use the more precise Fahrenheit system? Metrication is the devil!!!!! icon_evil

lol...is that the great artie lange in your avatar?  RM9 would have a fit if you used that over at OO.   icon_biggrin

oh, and add hepcat1 to your XBLive friend's list, ya punk.  i didn't even realize you were on there.

Oh yeah, that's Artie. Hepcat1 will be added. Good to see ya bro!
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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2007, 03:24:48 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on August 07, 2007, 03:12:49 PM

Quote from: jblank on August 07, 2007, 03:02:25 PM

God I hate the Celsius way of telling temperature.. Is there any way to get the world to use the more precise Fahrenheit system? Metrication is the devil!!!!! icon_evil
+1.  I'm feeling too lazy to translate those temps right now.

Okay, one number for fun - 100C = 212F. Which is the temp that water boils. And if you use Google and just type in '100c to f' you'll get the answer.  Tongue
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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2007, 03:42:21 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on August 07, 2007, 03:24:48 PM

Okay, one number for fun - 100C = 212F. Which is the temp that water boils. And if you use Google and just type in '100c to f' you'll get the answer.  Tongue

that would require more typing than I feel like doing at this particular moment in time.  perhaps later I shall peruse google and have enough initiative to type those 7 characters  icon_wink
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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2007, 03:47:43 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on August 07, 2007, 03:12:49 PM

Quote from: jblank on August 07, 2007, 03:02:25 PM

God I hate the Celsius way of telling temperature.. Is there any way to get the world to use the more precise Fahrenheit system? Metrication is the devil!!!!! icon_evil

+1.  I'm feeling too lazy to translate those temps right now.

I always hoped Kelvin would get some lovin' but alas, twas not meant to be.
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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2007, 03:48:34 PM »

Quote from: warning on August 07, 2007, 03:47:43 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on August 07, 2007, 03:12:49 PM

Quote from: jblank on August 07, 2007, 03:02:25 PM

God I hate the Celsius way of telling temperature.. Is there any way to get the world to use the more precise Fahrenheit system? Metrication is the devil!!!!! icon_evil

+1.  I'm feeling too lazy to translate those temps right now.

I always hoped Kevin would get some lovin' but alas, twas not meant to be.

 ninja
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2007, 04:28:55 PM »

Quote from: warning on August 07, 2007, 03:47:43 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on August 07, 2007, 03:12:49 PM

Quote from: jblank on August 07, 2007, 03:02:25 PM

God I hate the Celsius way of telling temperature.. Is there any way to get the world to use the more precise Fahrenheit system? Metrication is the devil!!!!! icon_evil

+1.  I'm feeling too lazy to translate those temps right now.

I always hoped Kelvin would get some lovin' but alas, twas not meant to be.

Kelvin is easy; it's 1:1 to Celsius, except 0 C is where water freezes (32f IIRC), and 0 Kelvin is absolute zero. Just add 273 to the Celsius number to convert to Kelvin.

So 373K = 100C = 212f

C > K > f (I lowercase to show it's diminutive status). Tongue ... you goddamned imperialists.
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2007, 06:30:57 PM »

Speaking of the overheating issue. In order to play the other day, I had to cover my 360 in a bag of ice, and blow a stationary fan at it for 25 minutes to let it cool before turning it one. All the while keepiong the fan trained on it when playing. This was the only way that it would actually load up, kept freezing with overheating issues any other way.
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2007, 09:14:37 PM »

Quote from: jimmyorr99 on August 07, 2007, 06:30:57 PM

Speaking of the overheating issue. In order to play the other day, I had to cover my 360 in a bag of ice, and blow a stationary fan at it for 25 minutes to let it cool before turning it one. All the while keepiong the fan trained on it when playing. This was the only way that it would actually load up, kept freezing with overheating issues any other way.
Get ready for the failboat!
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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2007, 10:17:19 PM »

The way this article focuses on the heat generated by the components is completely idiotic.

Modern graphics chips hit 80C at full load all the time. It's neither irregular nor out of spec for the hardware. The CPU temp of 58 celsius at load is well within operating limits and not a problem.

The only problem is the way the 360 deals with the heat it generates, not how hot the components themselves are getting. Their "thermal experts" or whatever it was they called them in the article are complete tools.
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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2007, 10:30:24 PM »

Quote from: Purge on August 07, 2007, 04:28:55 PM

Quote from: warning on August 07, 2007, 03:47:43 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on August 07, 2007, 03:12:49 PM

Quote from: jblank on August 07, 2007, 03:02:25 PM

God I hate the Celsius way of telling temperature.. Is there any way to get the world to use the more precise Fahrenheit system? Metrication is the devil!!!!! icon_evil

+1.  I'm feeling too lazy to translate those temps right now.

I always hoped Kelvin would get some lovin' but alas, twas not meant to be.

Kelvin is easy; it's 1:1 to Celsius, except 0 C is where water freezes (32f IIRC), and 0 Kelvin is absolute zero. Just add 273 to the Celsius number to convert to Kelvin.

So 373K = 100C = 212f

C > K > f (I lowercase to show it's diminutive status). Tongue ... you goddamned imperialists.


 retard Umm, did umm............ Did anybody get that??

Anyway, is there anyone that owns the cooling fan for a 360 that still failed? Because if Thin_J is right, which I believe he is, those cooling fans should help reduce the fail rate right?
 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 10:33:00 PM by juniordan » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2007, 11:58:29 PM »

Quote from: juniordan on August 07, 2007, 10:30:24 PM

retard Umm, did umm............ Did anybody get that??

Yes.  He said Celsius is exactly the same scale (1:1 meaning 1 degree Kelvin is the same as 1 degree Celsius), except the placement of 0 is different on both measures. 

So if you measure frozen water, and measure it when it boils, there will be 100 degrees difference on both ways of measuring (whereas there are 212 180 degrees of difference with Fahrenheit [edit- water freezes at 32F, and boils at 212: my hasty post didn't do that correctly] ).

Another way of looking at it is if 273 Kelvin is 0 Celsius, then -273 Celsius is 0 Kelvin.  You can't flip the numbers like that with Fahrenheit, because the scale is different.
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« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2007, 01:14:25 AM »

Quote from: Thin_J on August 07, 2007, 10:17:19 PM

The way this article focuses on the heat generated by the components is completely idiotic.

Modern graphics chips hit 80C at full load all the time. It's neither irregular nor out of spec for the hardware. The CPU temp of 58 celsius at load is well within operating limits and not a problem.

The only problem is the way the 360 deals with the heat it generates, not how hot the components themselves are getting. Their "thermal experts" or whatever it was they called them in the article are complete tools.

i'm not seeing the article focusing on the heat generated by the components, so much as making it clear to anyone who might not know just how hot they get, in order to emphasize just how critical proper cooling/ventilation is in such a piece of equipment. if there's anything idiotic here, it's the piss-poor way such industry-standard (ie, known by ms) heat generation's been dealt with in the design of the console (which the article describes quite clearly), &, even more so, the fact that, up until may 2007, 'repaired' 360s had yet to be modified to accommodate for it...

the thing is, if the article's thermal experts are complete tools, what does that make microsoft's?...
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« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2007, 02:24:57 AM »

Quote from: juniordan on August 07, 2007, 10:30:24 PM

Quote from: Purge on August 07, 2007, 04:28:55 PM

Quote from: warning on August 07, 2007, 03:47:43 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on August 07, 2007, 03:12:49 PM

Quote from: jblank on August 07, 2007, 03:02:25 PM

God I hate the Celsius way of telling temperature.. Is there any way to get the world to use the more precise Fahrenheit system? Metrication is the devil!!!!! icon_evil

+1.  I'm feeling too lazy to translate those temps right now.

I always hoped Kelvin would get some lovin' but alas, twas not meant to be.

Kelvin is easy; it's 1:1 to Celsius, except 0 C is where water freezes (32f IIRC), and 0 Kelvin is absolute zero. Just add 273 to the Celsius number to convert to Kelvin.

So 373K = 100C = 212f

C > K > f (I lowercase to show it's diminutive status). Tongue ... you goddamned imperialists.


 retard Umm, did umm............ Did anybody get that??

Anyway, is there anyone that owns the cooling fan for a 360 that still failed? Because if Thin_J is right, which I believe he is, those cooling fans should help reduce the fail rate right?
 

I think he was talking about me.....
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« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2007, 01:53:44 PM »

Do we have any word if the Elites are modified at all to deal with the heat issue?
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« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2007, 02:08:11 PM »

Quote from: Crux on August 08, 2007, 01:53:44 PM

Do we have any word if the Elites are modified at all to deal with the heat issue?

I think the word on the street is that yes, they've been modified. The airflow isn't any better though. They just dumped more goop onto the boards to make it more 'resistant' to overheating.
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« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2007, 02:17:19 PM »

Sooooooo.... Will those external vent fan thats sold separately help reduce the 360 failure rate.

This

Or
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« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2007, 02:24:17 PM »

There is also a vertical fan stand that I've seen at places like Target.  I would be more willing to trust something like that than one of those that puts itself between the power supply and the 360 (for which there were reports of problems a while ago). 
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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2007, 02:24:51 PM »

sigh...had my first freeze up in a game last night with my 2nd system that I just got less than 2 months ago.... 

let's hope this is the exception and not the rule.  but this is how it started before when my first one went bad.

microsoft should be sued for this kind of shoddy workmanship, imho.   icon_mad
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« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2007, 03:33:08 PM »

Quote from: juniordan on August 08, 2007, 02:17:19 PM

Sooooooo.... Will those external vent fan thats sold separately help reduce the 360 failure rate.

I thought people were having issues with the Intercooler actually causing the console to overheat, but that may have been corrected.
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« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2007, 04:18:12 PM »

Is it me or is there anyone else noticing the rechargeable pac not holding there charges well? I had mines at about a year now typically swapping between controllers while the other is charging. It took about 20-30min for my controllers to charge. Now, I could be playing for up to 4hrs. and the light stays red on charging controller. Within 2hr of wireless playing my wireless controller lights starts dancing. I know they weren't going last for ever hell the outlasted 2, 360 but should I not get more than a year out of them? Or have I been charging to much? If it helps mentioning both have identical cracks in them at the bottom, I figured it was from how hot they would get during charging. 

More cooling systems

WOW

Liquid Cooling


360 Portable
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« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2007, 03:43:48 AM »

Quote from: juniordan on August 08, 2007, 04:18:12 PM

360 Portable


seriously, MS need to get the rights to that and start making them NOW.
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« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2007, 04:43:29 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on August 09, 2007, 03:43:48 AM

Quote from: juniordan on August 08, 2007, 04:18:12 PM

360 Portable


seriously, MS need to get the rights to that and start making them NOW.

Yeah, Ben Heck's (at least I think that's his name) console modifications are pretty impressive, no?
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« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2007, 02:40:29 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on August 09, 2007, 03:43:48 AM

Quote from: juniordan on August 08, 2007, 04:18:12 PM

360 Portable


seriously, MS need to get the rights to that and start making them NOW.

The problem is that it would need its own air conditioning system to keep it cool.
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« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2007, 03:16:40 PM »

Quote from: jblank on August 09, 2007, 02:40:29 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on August 09, 2007, 03:43:48 AM

Quote from: juniordan on August 08, 2007, 04:18:12 PM

360 Portable


seriously, MS need to get the rights to that and start making them NOW.

The problem is that it would need its own air conditioning system to keep it cool.

If done properly though would a 360 require more cooling than a laptop?
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« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2007, 03:28:34 PM »

I was just trying to make a joke. It would probably require about the same amount of cooling.
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