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Author Topic: [360] Too Human Impressions  (Read 7445 times)
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The Grue
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« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2008, 06:32:48 PM »

Quote from: Eightball on August 25, 2008, 06:25:13 PM

Quote from: Dreamshadow on August 25, 2008, 03:11:39 PM

Berzerker is just downright fun..a viking pinball of doom (and I suspect the Champion will be similar in the air).

Zerker is fun, but they're as frail as the Commando, and since they have to be in melee, they can get one-shot fairly easily by the tougher mobs.

Defender is a great solo class imho.

Doing just fine with my berserker.  I laser rifle the bigger mobs and have no issues with launching mobs up into the air and air attacking them.  I also have full points into my Bear thing, so I have a nice AoE nuke.
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« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2008, 08:30:50 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on August 25, 2008, 06:32:48 PM

Quote from: Eightball on August 25, 2008, 06:25:13 PM

Quote from: Dreamshadow on August 25, 2008, 03:11:39 PM

Berzerker is just downright fun..a viking pinball of doom (and I suspect the Champion will be similar in the air).

Zerker is fun, but they're as frail as the Commando, and since they have to be in melee, they can get one-shot fairly easily by the tougher mobs.

Defender is a great solo class imho.

Doing just fine with my berserker.  I laser rifle the bigger mobs and have no issues with launching mobs up into the air and air attacking them.  I also have full points into my Bear thing, so I have a nice AoE nuke.

How far along are you?  I gave up on my zerker in the middle of Ice Forest, after one of those insane mob groupings that resulted in zerker insta-death (missile guys knocked me down, where I proceeded to get pounded to pieces).

A lot of fun playing him, though.  I'm basically now saving him for multiplayer.
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« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2008, 08:36:53 PM »

I have a level 15 or so Bezerker, he's fun to play but dies a little more than I'd like. I think I'll start up a Defender and give him a go.
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« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2008, 08:45:50 PM »

Quote from: Eightball on August 25, 2008, 08:30:50 PM

Quote from: The Grue on August 25, 2008, 06:32:48 PM

Quote from: Eightball on August 25, 2008, 06:25:13 PM

Quote from: Dreamshadow on August 25, 2008, 03:11:39 PM

Berzerker is just downright fun..a viking pinball of doom (and I suspect the Champion will be similar in the air).

Zerker is fun, but they're as frail as the Commando, and since they have to be in melee, they can get one-shot fairly easily by the tougher mobs.

Defender is a great solo class imho.

Doing just fine with my berserker.  I laser rifle the bigger mobs and have no issues with launching mobs up into the air and air attacking them.  I also have full points into my Bear thing, so I have a nice AoE nuke.

How far along are you?  I gave up on my zerker in the middle of Ice Forest, after one of those insane mob groupings that resulted in zerker insta-death (missile guys knocked me down, where I proceeded to get pounded to pieces).

A lot of fun playing him, though.  I'm basically now saving him for multiplayer.

I finished level 3 with him.  Just need to give level 4 a try.
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« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2008, 09:41:37 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on August 25, 2008, 08:45:50 PM

I finished level 3 with him.  Just need to give level 4 a try.

Further along than I got with my zerker, though my guy is almost at the end of Ice Forest.  I found the third level to be easier than the 2nd, to be honest.
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« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2008, 10:23:59 PM »

Quote from: Eightball on August 25, 2008, 08:30:50 PM


How far along are you?  I gave up on my zerker in the middle of Ice Forest, after one of those insane mob groupings that resulted in zerker insta-death (missile guys knocked me down, where I proceeded to get pounded to pieces).

A lot of fun playing him, though.  I'm basically now saving him for multiplayer.

I was okay with the berserker up until the end of Act 3.  Attacking specific locations with melee attacks ends up just being frustrating.  The AI seems to be too dumb to figure out where you want to attack.  And the camera does not want to seem to cooperate at all when you are trying to use fierce attacks.

There just seems to be an overall lack of balance across the game.  From the random health drops (at least they should have let people store a certain amount up) to the last mini-boss just before the end of the game.  Having to target attack using only ranged attacks against a boss that has a ton of health with the berserker is torture.  That said, the final boss was a cake-walk with strong melee (I would hate to play the commando in that situation). 
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The Grue
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« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2008, 10:29:20 PM »

Quote from: dangerballs on August 25, 2008, 10:23:59 PM

Quote from: Eightball on August 25, 2008, 08:30:50 PM


How far along are you?  I gave up on my zerker in the middle of Ice Forest, after one of those insane mob groupings that resulted in zerker insta-death (missile guys knocked me down, where I proceeded to get pounded to pieces).

A lot of fun playing him, though.  I'm basically now saving him for multiplayer.

I was okay with the berserker up until the end of Act 3.  Attacking specific locations with melee attacks ends up just being frustrating.  The AI seems to be too dumb to figure out where you want to attack.  And the camera does not want to seem to cooperate at all when you are trying to use fierce attacks.
 

I had an easy time with boss 3.

Here's what I did:

Spoiler for Hiden:
I equipped a rifle with slug damage and did away with him fairly quickly.
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« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2008, 05:56:09 AM »

Alright, beat the game.  The final boss fight was super easy as a Berserker, but I died quite a bit during the level.  I think I played about 13.5 hours and finished it at level 30.  I will definitely be playing some more to try to get some of the elite loot.
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« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2008, 01:20:41 PM »

I'm grabbing this from a post at Quarter to Three. I think he does an excellent job explaining what is bothering me so much about the media coverage surrounding Too Human. I've read multiple reviews now, and I've found a large number of them to be simply unfair. I can't help but think some reviewers wanted this game to fail after one of the developers became vocal over at Neogaf. Either that, or they are basing their scores on what they wanted the game to be instead of what it actually is:


Greetings:
So, I played a lot of this over the weekend, and there's definitely a good game in there. Not great, although it does have its moments, but definitely good. I think the biggest problem is that the game doesn't communicate very effectively with the player. Everything's in there, but it's up to you to puzzle it out. I think this is what Denis means when he says that people "don't get it". It's not that it's not in the game, it's that people aren't seeing what's there, and frankly most of the time, that's the game's fault. Things like vulnerability to different ammo types or having to dodge vs. jump to evade an attack, or drawing aggro, there are systems in place, but they're never really explained to you.

However, I don't think that fully explains the reaction to the game. I'm really astonished that people are rating this as a mediocre title or below. There just aren't many titles out there with this level of production value or complexity. Usually, the 50-60 percent scores are reserved for budget titles, kids games, and ambitious indies that fall significantly short. Those kinds of games don't look this good, they don't have moments of glory where everything clicks like this game does, and they don't have the depth of systems to support variety of play. I may be a jaded, cynical bastard, but I honestly think that some of these folks are marking the game down for being too ambitious and not delivering, which is, in my opinion, a horrible way to evaluate a game.

Or, they're just not "getting" it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe Graziani of GameSpy
In fact, many of the enemies never change either, unless you consider a palette swap a completely different enemy. There certainly are plenty of them thrown at you, but they all share the same basic characteristics and offer no new demands on your battle tactics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giancarlo Varanini of 1Up
Methods for defeating enemies are largely the same for all classes because almost every single enemy attacks with the same rushing-horde mentality.


Really? Because, I seem to remember enemies that hang back and shoot at you, artillery that homes in on you, a few different varieties of trolls with different area attacks, various polarized enemies that you're better off not going melee with, and a number of "wild card" leaders that give additional effects to their minions. I suppose you could just go with "whack everything" and if you're willing to die over and over, you could get away with it, but otherwise, this seems like someone who didn't bother to peek under the covers at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe Graziani of GameSpy
Meanwhile, you gain levels and grow stronger through a decidedly shallow tech tree that includes three branches that end up at the same destination.

Did this guy not see the alignment skill tree at all? Understandably, the game never really points you to it, but it seems like a reviewer should take the time to investigate everything...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe Graziani of GameSpy
It almost feels like open contempt for the foundation on which role-playing games are built because you are completely robbed of any meaningful way to play a role.


Did Too Human sleep with your mother or something? This guy isn't criticizing the game; he's personally offended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giancarlo Varanini of 1Up
Even something as simple as managing Charms (items that unlock more buffs) is a major hassle and surprisingly confusing if you don't pay close attention.


How little attention budget do you have that you can't manage charms? They have a quest to activate them, you slot runes into them. This isn't Calculus. In fact, it's one of the more interesting innovations in the gameplay, having all of these mini-quests, deciding which ones you want to pursue, when to balance having buffs versus prepping later ones.

Surprisingly, there's not a lot more to quote from 1Up, because there's almost no text to the review. There's nothing on the environments, the epic sweep, the graphical quality, or anything else related to the production values of the game. There's a brief bit disparaging the character system (again, no reference to alignment skills), another bit for the skills, one for the loot, and one for the action combat. Apparently, the reviewer found only one glimpse of hope in the whole experience, in multiplayer, and then only if one player plays melee and the other ranged. That's surprising, given that the game truly does shine through at times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin VanOrd of GameSpot
Other issues make the combat even more frustrating. Eventually, your foes will pummel you with knockback attacks and various status effects, such as freezing you, slowing your movement to a crawl, or irradiating you. These attacks are poorly implemented and point to Too Human's balance problems: They last far too long and slow the tempo far too much.


At least he's not saying that the game doesn't have any variety in its combat, but he seems to be blaming the game for his own faults. If you bother to actually learn the rules of the combat system and enemy types, you don't spend much time frozen, slowed, or irradiated. If you choose to ignore the tactics of the gameplay and end up dying, is that poor implementation or user error?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin VanOrd of GameSpot
These and other issues don't make Too Human a bad game, but they make it a disappointing one that revs its engine only to come to a screeching halt moments later. When that engine kicks into full gear, the slicing and dicing can be surprisingly enjoyable. Sadly, these moments are too few and far between, making Too Human stand out as a perfect example of awesome but unrealized potential.


And that, I think, is the problem in a nutshell. It's not that it's a bad game; it's that the reviewers are disappointed in it.

It's weird. These guys are looking past the game that's right in front of them - sometimes literally missing what is happening on screen - and criticizing the game for not being something else that they thought it might or perhaps should have been. Is that any basis to review a game on? Isn't the critic/reviewer responsible for seeing and understanding what the game is actually doing?

I'm baffled, and even perturbed, that these high-profile sites approved these reviews and these scores. As I said at the top, I don't think it's a great game, but it's certainly not mediocre, as these reviews would lead you to believe. I've played a lot of mediocre games in my day; hell, I've made some. This is not one of those games. It fails to do a lot of what it promises, but it does a hell of a lot more than other games in that score range.

Best,
Michael.
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« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2008, 02:34:50 PM »

It was late when I posted that I beat it, so I didn't really give any impressions.  I enjoyed playing the game.  In fact, when I finished, I played through Hall of Heroes immediately after because I had a level 2 charm I needed to complete and it was missing one last level 1 charm which was a kill 250 goblins ones.  I knew I could get it easily there, so I played through all of level 1 without dying, which doesn't count for the achievement, unfortunately (I guess you have to do it during the actual campaign).  I enjoyed the story, especially with the revelation at the end and the obvious lead to a sequel and I will buy Too Human 2 on the first day it comes out, especially if Denis learns a little bit from his mistakes and makes some improvements.

I haven't played any co-op yet (hopefully someone out there will help me rectify that), but I imagine this is where I will live to get my character up to 50.  I do wish they could have gotten in 4 player co-op, though sometimes in the environments I wonder if 4 people could have fit well with some of the halls and ramps being somewhat narrow.  I guess that can be countered by the fact that it isn't like the group has to stay together or anything.

I am anxious to see what kinds of elite armor sets there are out there.  I am sure they will have interesting effects.  The last level 2 charm I got makes it to where you can hit mobs and sometimes they will become confused and attack other enemies.  So, I can see they are starting to open up on cool abilities and it will be nice to see what else they come up with.

I do agree sometimes that the camera can be a bitch.  There are times when I want to kite some mobs with guns and the camera would mess up a little or it wouldn't lock on to the nearest enemy.  I have learned to cope with it, though, by quickly pointing towards the enemy, locking on, and then running away.  I guess I assumed the guns would lock on the nearest enemy, but it seems that you actually have to point.  There are times when I wanted to lock onto something I was facing and the gun would not lock.  Not earth destroying, by any means, but a little annoying.  I don't worry about it too much now that I have played.

Things I would like to see in Too Human 2:

1)  More levels with more interesting environments.  There's only 4 levels, but each one is pretty lengthy.  I would rather shorter levels with more variety, I think.
2)  Improve camera and targeting system.
3)  Maybe some quests that come out of the hub area or even out in the levels.
4)  Do more with that alternate reality place.  I loved the forest and everything, but it just seemed like a weird way to throw in a system to unlock doors and find other loot.  Would be interesting to actually play some levels out there and for Pete's sake, let me be able to swap equipment out there.

So, I think all in all, I would give this game something in the low 80s.  As much fun as I had with it, I do think it has some issues.  If they can get this stuff cleaned up, I think they could easily push this game into something that would score in the 90s.  That assumes, though, that people don't just take out their frustrations upon review.  The 50s and 60s this game got are not justified. 
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« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2008, 02:57:41 PM »

Quote from: Misguided on August 25, 2008, 11:49:24 AM

I'm disappointed because I thought it had same-system co-op.
So much for my thought of it being a big seller through Christmas.

The lack of offline co-op was a disappointment to me as well and it's for that reason I decided to rent it. So far, due to having to rush off on a biz trip, I've barely scratched the surface. Reading the posts of those GT'ers that are enjoying it is leading me to think I'll like it too. The comments in the IGN review encourage me as well. From what's stated in the comments in Dante Rising's re-post, it sounding like it's a RPG hybrid that I'd be better off reading a FAQ on characters and skills before getting to far into it.
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« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2008, 03:21:17 PM »


The hardest decision you'll make in the game is the Human/Cybernetic choice.  You have to make that one blind at level 10 without seeing the skill tree for it first.  You only have their description onscreen (No, I've not looked in the manual to see if it is described there.)  The good news..don't like your skill choices that you made as you level?  Spend some bounty, get all your points back to re-spend.  You can't change the human/cybernetic choice, but you can reallocate your skill points.
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« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2008, 05:43:03 PM »

How did you guys manage to cope with the horrible, and I do mean HORRIBLE, camera system that this game has? I bought it yesterday based on the impressions in here, thinking this might be one of those hidden gems, but the controls and the camera just ruined it for me. This might arguably have been the worst camera system I have seen in a "next-gen" system. I actually got a little bit of motion sickness from the dizzying movement of your character, combined with having to hit LB to snap it back to a centered position.

That was the last straw for me and I had to sell it on ebay, because due to my propensity for Migraines, once I get motion sickness on a game it has to go.

I know it's going to sound funny considering the development cycle of the game, but I think it needed to stay in house a bit longer to straighten out its issues.

REALLY hate to do it, but it gets a big  thumbsdown from me.  icon_frown I tried guys, I really tried.
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« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2008, 05:47:03 PM »

Quote from: jblank on August 26, 2008, 05:43:03 PM

How did you guys manage to cope with the horrible, and I do mean HORRIBLE, camera system that this game has? I bought it yesterday based on the impressions in here, thinking this might be one of those hidden gems, but the controls and the camera just ruined it for me. This might arguably have been the worst camera system I have seen in a "next-gen" system. I actually got a little bit of motion sickness from the dizzying movement of your character, combined with having to hit LB to snap it back to a centered position.

That was the last straw for me and I had to sell it on ebay, because due to my propensity for Migraines, once I get motion sickness on a game it has to go.

I know it's going to sound funny considering the development cycle of the game, but I think it needed to stay in house a bit longer to straighten out its issues.

REALLY hate to do it, but it gets a big  thumbsdown from me.  icon_frown I tried guys, I really tried.

Did you try all of the camera modes? One of them is very similar to Diablo or MUA's camera.  At least I thoght so in the demo.

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« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2008, 05:48:21 PM »


Other than one or two squirlly moments when I got close to a wall or overhang, tapping LB when the camera got difficult was all I needed to do.  Now, I was playing a commando so the camera pointed where I was firing most of the time.
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« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2008, 06:07:20 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on August 26, 2008, 05:47:03 PM

Quote from: jblank on August 26, 2008, 05:43:03 PM

How did you guys manage to cope with the horrible, and I do mean HORRIBLE, camera system that this game has? I bought it yesterday based on the impressions in here, thinking this might be one of those hidden gems, but the controls and the camera just ruined it for me. This might arguably have been the worst camera system I have seen in a "next-gen" system. I actually got a little bit of motion sickness from the dizzying movement of your character, combined with having to hit LB to snap it back to a centered position.

That was the last straw for me and I had to sell it on ebay, because due to my propensity for Migraines, once I get motion sickness on a game it has to go.

I know it's going to sound funny considering the development cycle of the game, but I think it needed to stay in house a bit longer to straighten out its issues.

REALLY hate to do it, but it gets a big  thumbsdown from me.  icon_frown I tried guys, I really tried.

Did you try all of the camera modes? One of them is very similar to Diablo or MUA's camera.  At least I thoght so in the demo.



You're probably referring to the ISO angle.  The default camera angle is far too tight for the game.
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« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2008, 06:41:12 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on August 26, 2008, 05:47:03 PM

Quote from: jblank on August 26, 2008, 05:43:03 PM

How did you guys manage to cope with the horrible, and I do mean HORRIBLE, camera system that this game has? I bought it yesterday based on the impressions in here, thinking this might be one of those hidden gems, but the controls and the camera just ruined it for me. This might arguably have been the worst camera system I have seen in a "next-gen" system. I actually got a little bit of motion sickness from the dizzying movement of your character, combined with having to hit LB to snap it back to a centered position.

That was the last straw for me and I had to sell it on ebay, because due to my propensity for Migraines, once I get motion sickness on a game it has to go.

I know it's going to sound funny considering the development cycle of the game, but I think it needed to stay in house a bit longer to straighten out its issues.

REALLY hate to do it, but it gets a big  thumbsdown from me.  icon_frown I tried guys, I really tried.

Did you try all of the camera modes? One of them is very similar to Diablo or MUA's camera.  At least I thoght so in the demo.



The only other one I tried was "Strategic" or something like that.
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« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2008, 07:36:08 PM »

Just some random thoughts:

I think this game got the shaft as part of a general backlash towards someone shooting their mouth off, and the amount of time in development.  It does not suck.  I've played worse hack and slash games that received much better reviews.  I'd rate it in the mid 70s to low 80s on a 1-100 scale.  Yep, there are some ugly parts of the game, but it's not nearly as bad as some of the reviews state.   

The camera can definitely be wonky at the default setting.  ISO seems to be the safest, and by safest I mean grants the widest view of the battlefield.  Strategic seems to work different than the other angles.  It zooms in close during melee, and seems to pan out further as soon I go to guns.  I trend to bounce back and forth between Back and ISO.

This is not a pushover hack and slash, there are some really tough battles.  While a single enemy will not be particularly tough for Baldur, it's the combined efforts of different types of baddies working together that makes for some really humbling sections.  Expect to die...a lot...especially on the 2nd map.  I'm starting to wonder if the game was balanced more for 2 people rather than 1 player solo in some sections.  Even playing a defender I have little chance not dying going up against some packs of mixed units that send forth their tanks to block me while their ranged and missile units rip me apart.  Don't get me wrong though, it's actually refreshing to see the game AI do this. 

The loot is awesome.  Cybernetic looks different than Human armor, and each class has unique armor and weapons. 

The skill trees are ok to pretty good.  My defender took what I would label the Ice Defender path, and has several different ways to control crowds and mitigate damage by freezing baddies.  He has a flat 5% chance on each melee hit to freeze his target.  He can activate his battle cry which creates a shield that has a chance to freeze attackers.  His spider does an aoe freeze attack that is strong enough to lock down some bosses and hordes of normal foes ranked up.  I haven't even touched any of the Cybernetic skill tree yet! 

The voice acting is cheesy, but it fits with genre, and doesn't take anything away from the experience for me.  I'm not expecting to live out the story of Beowulf in a hack and slash game.  Actually, too much story can get in the way of the fast pace.  Speaking of which, I agree with the notion that the "back at base" map is way too big, and does actually grind the pace down to a crawl.  That said, getting back into the drop ship and ready for action again doesn't take that long if I don't screw around and get side tracked.

The combat is fun for me, and has that I'm a god kicking ass feel to it.  Every now and then I get the I'm a god getting my ass kicked feeling, but overall, Baldur is a badass. 

It's not a top tier game, but it's not nearly as bad as I would have thought based on the reviews and backlash.           

     

     

« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 07:39:46 PM by Roguetad » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2008, 08:20:14 PM »

I've been lurking in this thread and appreciate all the feedback.  Sounds like something I'll definitely be picking up after a price drop.
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« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2008, 09:55:17 PM »

Question: if a specific weapon is listed as for a different class, is it safe to jettison it? Or is there a way to transfer that to a different character?
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« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2008, 10:01:39 PM »

Quote from: Teggy on August 26, 2008, 09:55:17 PM

Question: if a specific weapon is listed as for a different class, is it safe to jettison it? Or is there a way to transfer that to a different character?

You can trade in co-op, from what I hear.
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« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2008, 11:36:57 AM »

Quote from: jblank on August 26, 2008, 05:43:03 PM

This might arguably have been the worst camera system I have seen in a "next-gen" system.

Don't play Operation Darkness.

Hey Roguetad, I don't have the full game (only played the demo), but the other thing
that turned me off was that all the skill trees seemed the same. You can't diversify
among them and the structure of them all looked identical (i.e. a spider, a battlecry etc.).
Is that off the mark?
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« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2008, 02:43:03 PM »

Quote from: Misguided on August 27, 2008, 11:36:57 AM

Quote from: jblank on August 26, 2008, 05:43:03 PM

This might arguably have been the worst camera system I have seen in a "next-gen" system.

Don't play Operation Darkness.

Hey Roguetad, I don't have the full game (only played the demo), but the other thing
that turned me off was that all the skill trees seemed the same. You can't diversify
among them and the structure of them all looked identical (i.e. a spider, a battlecry etc.).
Is that off the mark?

They do indeed have a spider and a battle cry, because that is a weapon you can use no matter what class you are.  You can only choose one of each during your run down the tree.  Otherwise, there are differences in the class tree and the human/cybernetic tree (there are two tress to work with in total), though I don't believe they are super major differences.
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« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2008, 04:08:54 PM »

My biggest issue isn't just the camera, as you can work with it in most cases.

...but,

When you combine a poor camera and poor ranged targeting when in close you get a disaster.
This doesn't create any issues with the "cannon fodder" but does create frustration in some boss battles

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« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2008, 04:28:53 PM »

Quote from: Misguided on August 27, 2008, 11:36:57 AM

Hey Roguetad, I don't have the full game (only played the demo), but the other thing that turned me off was that all the skill trees seemed the same. You can't diversify among them and the structure of them all looked identical (i.e. a spider, a battlecry etc.).  Is that off the mark?

You're right on.  They share the same structure in how the paths are setup.  I'm not really wild about the skill trees.  Even the graphic UI is kind of bland.  The skills are ok, with bigger differences in the spiders and battle cries.  The other skills are mostly passive and not terribly exciting.

I'm almost done playing through as a defender.  It's been mostly fun with one exception...the ranged baddies are freaking ridiculous.  Their range reaches all the way across large sections of a map, there are lots of them usually setup with wicked angles for crossfire, and there's really no way to close with them without getting ripped apart.  Most of my deaths have come as a result of ranged crossfire that I wasn't able to close the distance with in time.  

Quick example, I come across a mixed group of melee and ranged enemies with a troll thrown in the mix.  The AI works together well, and will swarm me with the melee types while keeping the ranged units away from me.  So far so good.  This is just good AI imo.  As I'm trying to work through this group, the ranged baddies from the next group a quarter mile away further down the linear map start opening fire on me.  If I dispatch the ranged foes in the current swarm, ignore the melees, and head to the next group to take out their ranged guys, I end up with two groups of melee, and the third group of ranged baddies now shooting at me.

What I like is that the AI constantly pulls me towards the next engagement; what I don't like is that they're doing it from at least 2-5 times my max weapon range, maybe more.  It's not game breaking, but it's annoying, and takes some of the fun out.  I also noticed that my defender who's equipped in almost all red armor (elite?) has pretty good resists against everything except ballistics.  He has a big fat 0 in ballistics resists!  And he's carrying a freaking shield.  Doesn't make any sense.  

Speaking of weapons, the manual is pathetic.  There's no mention of the perks for each weapon group, or why I would want to use a hammer and shield as a defender versus a staff that does more damage and has a boost to total armor%.  I have no clue what the shield even does in the hammer and shield combo.  It doesn't add to his armor, and doesn't seem to add to any of his resists.  The weapon type is listed as dual wield, but the damage isn't any better than a single sword.  There's no blocking.  It looks cool, but I just don't see a reason not to just use the best weapon available.  I think single swords have a better chance to crit, hammers can juggle multiple foes in the air, dual wield I have no idea, staff seems to have an aoe arc to the normal attack, and hammer and shield I have no clue either.  The sword and staff fierce attacks are great, and actually have decent range.  The hammer fierce attacks have a harder to execute whirling throw arc to them.  

Despite my critiques, it's still fun.  Still a mid 70s game for me.                
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« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2008, 04:34:15 PM »

There is some place in Aesir where you can get a feel for what the benefits of each weapon are.  Might be in the weapon shop and is a screen you can stand by and press A.
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« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2008, 04:42:35 PM »

Quote from: Roguetad on August 27, 2008, 04:28:53 PM

I also noticed that my defender who's equipped in almost all red armor (elite?) has pretty good resists against everything except ballistics.  He has a big fat 0 in ballistics resists!  And he's carrying a freaking shield.  Doesn't make any sense.  

You can insert ballistics resists runes.  But it's wierd, agreed.

Quote
I have no clue what the shield even does in the hammer and shield combo.  It doesn't add to his armor, and doesn't seem to add to any of his resists.  The weapon type is listed as dual wield, but the damage isn't any better than a single sword.  There's no blocking.  It looks cool, but I just don't see a reason not to just use the best weapon available.

According to Dyack in a post on the Too Human forum, the shield gives an additional 10% resist that isn't shown on the character screen.  (Post is gone when Too Human.net went to a new forum system, unfortunately).

Of course, a real failing with this game is how poorly everything is explained to the player...
  
Quote from: The Grue"
There is some place in Aesir where you can get a feel for what the benefits of each weapon are.  Might be in the weapon shop and is a screen you can stand by and press A.

You're right.  It's the hallway in the weaponshop leading to the work benches.
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« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2008, 04:45:19 PM »

Yeah, my big complaint is I have a berserker but I never used dual wield swords because I always had a two hander that appeared to do more damage.  There is no proof that I can find in game that the sword hits twice for every hit of the two hander and so I can't prove whether I do more damage or not.  It didn't seem to in game.  It seemed like I finished monsters off quicker with the big weapons.  Now, one benefit I could think of with the two swords is that I get more hits and therefore maybe build my combo meter up quickly.  Again, no way to know for certain. Dyack likes to say people don't get it, but it would help if the mechanics in the game were explained somewhere.
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« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2008, 06:20:31 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on August 27, 2008, 04:45:19 PM

Yeah, my big complaint is I have a berserker but I never used dual wield swords because I always had a two hander that appeared to do more damage.  There is no proof that I can find in game that the sword hits twice for every hit of the two hander and so I can't prove whether I do more damage or not.  It didn't seem to in game.  It seemed like I finished monsters off quicker with the big weapons.  Now, one benefit I could think of with the two swords is that I get more hits and therefore maybe build my combo meter up quickly.  Again, no way to know for certain. Dyack likes to say people don't get it, but it would help if the mechanics in the game were explained somewhere.

If you press right on the d-pad, you can bring up the hitpoint indicator, so you could try and test it out that way?
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« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2008, 06:31:24 PM »

Quote from: Teggy on August 27, 2008, 06:20:31 PM

Quote from: The Grue on August 27, 2008, 04:45:19 PM

Yeah, my big complaint is I have a berserker but I never used dual wield swords because I always had a two hander that appeared to do more damage.  There is no proof that I can find in game that the sword hits twice for every hit of the two hander and so I can't prove whether I do more damage or not.  It didn't seem to in game.  It seemed like I finished monsters off quicker with the big weapons.  Now, one benefit I could think of with the two swords is that I get more hits and therefore maybe build my combo meter up quickly.  Again, no way to know for certain. Dyack likes to say people don't get it, but it would help if the mechanics in the game were explained somewhere.

If you press right on the d-pad, you can bring up the hitpoint indicator, so you could try and test it out that way?

I did, but still couldn't get a good feel.  All I could see is that a sword did less damage per hit but couldn't tell if I was hitting more often.  I guess I should play with it a little more.
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« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2008, 06:35:00 PM »

I could see where dual wield would be a nice advantage for a berserker if the chance to proc effects increased (not sure if beserkers have any procs in their skill tree).  

I was thinking of re-speccing out of the defender ice line for my last push.  Freezing enemies is nice in theory for crowd control, but I really don't need it for melee CC.  I'd rather have skills that help me kill things faster, or contribute to pure damage mitigation.  Ice line sounded great, but it's not the close stuff that I have a problem with, it's the ranged enemies.  If I can kill the melee stuff faster, I think I'll be better off.  I can see the ice line being helpful in coop though.  I freeze stuff, berserker zips around and kills it.  
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« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2008, 07:22:06 PM »

Quote from: Roguetad on August 27, 2008, 06:35:00 PM

I could see where dual wield would be a nice advantage for a berserker if the chance to proc effects increased (not sure if beserkers have any procs in their skill tree).  

I use dual wield on my level 20 berserker, because my skill tree on that character grants me like 20% attack speed with dual wield.  If you don't spec out the character to use dual wield, I don't really see a reason why to use it; you seem to attack faster with dual wield, but you can do more damage with a 2 hander.

Quote
I was thinking of re-speccing out of the defender ice line for my last push.  Freezing enemies is nice in theory for crowd control, but I really don't need it for melee CC.  I'd rather have skills that help me kill things faster, or contribute to pure damage mitigation.  Ice line sounded great, but it's not the close stuff that I have a problem with, it's the ranged enemies.  If I can kill the melee stuff faster, I think I'll be better off.  I can see the ice line being helpful in coop though.  I freeze stuff, berserker zips around and kills it.  

I respecced out of the ice line into the line that gives you +hammer damage and the laser spider.  The warcry is useless in solo (yay, all aggro!  oh wait...i already HAVE ALL AGGRO), but the laser spider is great, and you do a noticeably larger amount of damage with your hammer.
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« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2008, 01:28:04 AM »

I have been working on the 2nd area over the last two nights (in fairly short bursts - I've probably spent about 2.5 hours on it) and wow, have I been getting mauled.  There were a couple of areas I was getting killed practically right after respawning - I wound up breaking a few pieces of purple armor that I had crafted. When I hit level 13, that opened up access to a few nice weapons, and that has helped. I also noticed that

Spoiler for Hiden:
when you got to the big suspended disc, you could break the cylinders on the edges and drop it, killing all the monsters at once - at least I think that's what happened.

What level were people during the second area?  I think I made it to 14 before I stopped, but I'm not sure how far into the area I am. I was wondering if maybe I was having so much trouble because I didn't combo enough in the Hall of Heroes and was a lower level than the designers expected when I started the second area (I think I was only at 9).
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« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2008, 01:38:46 AM »

The more I play Too Human, the more I find myself enjoying it. I've played three classes now, and each plays noticeably different than the previous class once you begin to modify it through the trees. I had planned on trading the game away, but I think I'll make this one a permanent part of my library.

I know the second part is well under way, so I really hoping MS continues to back Silicon Knights. Hell, Viva pinata got a second chance. smile  The recent price drop to $49.99 by various retailers has me concerned.

I'd rate the game a very solid 85%. It could easily become an AAA trilogy if SK tweaks the game based upon user feedback.
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« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2008, 01:50:33 AM »

Quote from: Teggy on August 28, 2008, 01:28:04 AM

I have been working on the 2nd area over the last two nights (in fairly short bursts - I've probably spent about 2.5 hours on it) and wow, have I been getting mauled.  There were a couple of areas I was getting killed practically right after respawning - I wound up breaking a few pieces of purple armor that I had crafted. When I hit level 13, that opened up access to a few nice weapons, and that has helped. I also noticed that

Spoiler for Hiden:
when you got to the big suspended disc, you could break the cylinders on the edges and drop it, killing all the monsters at once - at least I think that's what happened.

What level were people during the second area?  I think I made it to 14 before I stopped, but I'm not sure how far into the area I am. I was wondering if maybe I was having so much trouble because I didn't combo enough in the Hall of Heroes and was a lower level than the designers expected when I started the second area (I think I was only at 9).

The second area is a bitch for just about everyone, especially depending upon your class.  Good drops helped ease my pain significantly the second time through.
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« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2008, 02:06:54 AM »

Quote from: Dante Rising on August 28, 2008, 01:50:33 AM

Quote from: Teggy on August 28, 2008, 01:28:04 AM

I have been working on the 2nd area over the last two nights (in fairly short bursts - I've probably spent about 2.5 hours on it) and wow, have I been getting mauled.  There were a couple of areas I was getting killed practically right after respawning - I wound up breaking a few pieces of purple armor that I had crafted. When I hit level 13, that opened up access to a few nice weapons, and that has helped. I also noticed that

Spoiler for Hiden:
when you got to the big suspended disc, you could break the cylinders on the edges and drop it, killing all the monsters at once - at least I think that's what happened.

What level were people during the second area?  I think I made it to 14 before I stopped, but I'm not sure how far into the area I am. I was wondering if maybe I was having so much trouble because I didn't combo enough in the Hall of Heroes and was a lower level than the designers expected when I started the second area (I think I was only at 9).

The second area is a bitch for just about everyone, especially depending upon your class.  Good drops helped ease my pain significantly the second time through.

Yeah, I probably should have mentioned I'm playing Commando.  The low health rating probably doesn't help.
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« Reply #76 on: August 29, 2008, 03:41:52 PM »

Well I finished the game with a lvl 29 Bio Engineer and died a crap load of times

I started over last night as a Champion got to level 9 and only died once. Big difference playing as a Champion compared to a Bio Engineer.

The heal just needs a great deal of improvement for a Bio Engineer to be even close to a Champion. In essence the balance is horrible
The issue is that it seems to affect leveling as I am already on a pace to hit level 40 with the Champion
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« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2008, 04:40:04 PM »

Quote from: DamageInc on August 29, 2008, 03:41:52 PM

The issue is that it seems to affect leveling as I am already on a pace to hit level 40 with the Champion

This doesn't make sense.  You don't get an XP penalty for dying and you would fight the same number of creatures as any class.  I wonder what would make the difference?
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« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2008, 04:42:07 PM »

Still slogging through the 2nd area (I am only playing 1hr or so at a time). They really need to improve the save system - I saved after a significant battle the other night, but when I continued the campaign, I had to fight back alone through a significant number of areas to get back to where I saved.

I saw on one of the forums there are threads for people trading loot.  How is that done?

If you go back and redo earlier areas, do the monsters stay the same or do they scale up to your level?  I know there are achievements for completing the areas without dying, and I couldn't imagine being able to do that without being overpowered vs. the enemies.
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« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2008, 04:44:00 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on August 29, 2008, 04:40:04 PM

Quote from: DamageInc on August 29, 2008, 03:41:52 PM

The issue is that it seems to affect leveling as I am already on a pace to hit level 40 with the Champion

This doesn't make sense.  You don't get an XP penalty for dying and you would fight the same number of creatures as any class.  I wonder what would make the difference?

Well, when you die you kill your combo level, and don't you get experience bonuses for having a high combo level? So if you stayed alive you would be getting more XP per kill.
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