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Author Topic: [360] Burnout Revenge's A.I. / manufactured "difficulty  (Read 817 times)
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TheMissingLink
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« on: April 21, 2006, 08:29:51 AM »

This isn't a post made in pure frustration, or anger, it's just a realistic look into the absolutely retarded "difficulty" that the World Tour in the 360 version of Burnout Revenge offers.

I have a sort of conspiracy theory about the A.I. in this game.  This is going to sound stupid to some people, but there's gotta be someone else out there who shares this view with me:

Burnout's events are programmed to be extremely, extremely hard (somewhat impossible) until a certain amount of attempts at which an easier level of difficulty is unlocked, giving the illusion of difficulty at the expense of fun.

I rarely, RARELY get a gold medal + awesome rating to achieve a perfect score on any event the first time through, and I consider myself to be a good Burnout player.  

But if you've played the World Tour mode, I'm sure you've played crash events multiple times, nearly pulling your hair out at why you are still $2m short, only to go about $3m PAST the score you needed on your 8th-9th attempt.  It's unexplainable and weird.

Another easy event to witness this illusion of difficulty is via road rages.  On every road rage event I've raced in, I've always had a very, very hard time even achieving silver on my first 5 or so attempts.  I'll average maybe 8 takedown's a race...but then a race happens where it would seem you merely brush an opposing racer and he shatters into a million pieces.  The cars nearly break themselves and you go 2-3 over the gold mark of alloted takedowns.  Happens every time for me!

Has anybody else felt this way?  Experienced this?  I'm not sure about the original Xbox version - and I sure as heck don't remember this sort of BS with Burnout 3.  It's giving the illusion of difficulty, when all it's really doing, is wasting your time.
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Knightshade Dragon
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2006, 10:51:40 AM »

You have touched on the very thing that frustrates me most with EA racing games.  In every one of them there is no shortage of evidence of catch-up AI, cheating, and scoring that can only be described as a whole different angle on math.  I've absolutely seen what you are talking about specifically in Burnout since EA purchased the series.  I can recall in Burnout 3 trying to hit a bus to trigger a massive crash - sometimes it would move an inch, sometimes a mile, even though I was hitting it the same way every time.  In addition, it seemed that there were sometimes LESS cars than other times making it impossible to complete the objective, no matter how well your strike was placed.  

In short, I'm totally with ya.
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2006, 02:07:13 PM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
Has anybody else felt this way?


No. I haven't seen that at all. Though sometimes I'm surprised at a particular score, it's easy for that to happen because of the way crashbreaker multipliers work. It hasn't seemed to me at all like this was tied to the number of attempts, though.

Then again, I also never thought there was rubberband AI in NFSMW, and many seem convinced of that.
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whiteboyskim
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2006, 02:11:21 PM »

I love Burnout 3 but have seen some evidence of just those sort of problems. It seems specific to the Crash Mode where I can get golds in all but three of them and those three are so ridiculously insane that I consider myself lucky if I hit gold. But the thing that pisses me off is when you're doing the races or the head-to-head because if you screw up so much as an inch then you're toast. My strategy has been to attack the AI whenever it shows up and make it crash because then I can get further down the track and closer to the finish line.

Key line missing: I do not get way ahead of the AI because he'll rubberband right to me every time. I just get to the finish line first and that's fine by me.
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2006, 03:10:30 PM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
Burnout's events are programmed to be extremely, extremely hard (somewhat impossible) until a certain amount of attempts at which an easier level of difficulty is unlocked, giving the illusion of difficulty at the expense of fun.

I've heard of some games that make your life easier if you suck at them (repeated deaths, etc), but not games that start out impossible, just to extend the life of the game (as that's how I see this).

But this is EA, and they're very well known for their cheating AI (as making an AI that actually works is just too difficult).

I mean, making an AI that actually plays fair and doesn't cheat (Virtua Fighter) is impossible, right?
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TheMissingLink
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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2006, 05:03:31 PM »

Quote from: "Destructor"
Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
Burnout's events are programmed to be extremely, extremely hard (somewhat impossible) until a certain amount of attempts at which an easier level of difficulty is unlocked, giving the illusion of difficulty at the expense of fun.

I've heard of some games that make your life easier if you suck at them (repeated deaths, etc), but not games that start out impossible, just to extend the life of the game (as that's how I see this).


Yeah, I've experienced that first kind of difficulty in a game before as well, but there's just something in the back of my mind telling me that EA put this in there to create the illusion of true difficulty and essentially only give people the chance to perfect circuits if they've got a lot of time (and patience) on their hands.

Quote from: "Destructor"
I mean, making an AI that actually plays fair and doesn't cheat (Virtua Fighter) is impossible, right?


VF4:Evo has just about the best AI ever, agreed.

The whole rubberband issue with races...I can see how they wanted to keep that in the game.  To them, it keeps races exciting and focuses on what their series is all about: takedowns.

But after playing online, I feel it's more exciting to see yourself 0.2 miles away of someone, sweating it out and know if you crash you just may very well give up 1st.  That's more exciting than taking down your 5th opponent in a race.
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2006, 05:19:14 PM »

What you're experiencing is the very reason I cannot play Burnout games.

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depward
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2006, 06:03:47 PM »

Take, for instance, that one crash event where the gold medal score was 14$ Million.  I got $20 Million but only acheived a "Great" ranking.  Why did I only get a "Great" when I blew the Gold Medal mark out of the water?  No clue.

SO I retried it.  The good news was I was receiving "Awesome" rankings.  But, for the life of me, I couldn't get above 14$ Million.

Then after about 10 tries in a seemingly bad set-up, I achieved both.  It was weird.

The thing I dislike about Revenge sometimes is that rating.  Such as that one Burning Lap where I beat the time but didn't get an "Awesome" ranking.  I didn't crash, took all of the short-cuts, what was the problem!  So I raced it over and over . . . and finally decided to just take ZERO shortcuts and drive in the other lane the whole time.  And beat it.
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2006, 06:13:20 PM »

+1
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2006, 10:28:13 PM »

I got all gold medals in the crash portion of Burnout 3 over the course of two nights.

I never beat the last 20 or so races in the racing portion for all the reasons already listed.

I was irritated enough by Burnout 3 that I've completely skipped Revenge.
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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2006, 01:33:33 AM »

Quote from: "depward"

The thing I dislike about Revenge sometimes is that rating.  Such as that one Burning Lap where I beat the time but didn't get an "Awesome" ranking.  I didn't crash, took all of the short-cuts, what was the problem!  So I raced it over and over . . . and finally decided to just take ZERO shortcuts and drive in the other lane the whole time.  And beat it.


Did you know about the ranking meter that goes up the crazier you drive?  It steadily decreases during the race unless you do things like takedowns, driving towards incoming traffic, near misses, etc.  which make it go up.

So if you drive a perfect race, but don't do much else, you'll get a gold but a lower rating.  I hated those burning laps as well.  I had to drive perfect and be on the wrong side of the road the whole race to get a gold and an Awesome.
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2006, 08:28:59 PM »

I can't say I've  noticed Burnout Revenge levels getting "easier" the more times I try it.... getting a Perfect ranking is fairly easy sometimes, hair-pullingly difficult at others.  Nothing "unfair" though... when I finally finished a Burning Lap event, it's because I memorized every single shortcut, hit every single car, drove in opposite lanes, etc.  

As far as rubber-band AI - yeah, Burnout Revenge has it in spades... but for a game where so much of it depends on slamming your opponents into the wall, it's pretty much a necessity.
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